Which Rat would be the Right Rat?

L

LFH

Joined
Feb 24, 2005
Messages
469
We got word yesterday that our Son in law is being recalled into the Army after being out for 4 and a half years.

He is a Blackhawk helicopter pliot as well as a field medic, so no doubt as to where he will be headed.

So, to get to the point, I want to buy him a good fixed blade. I have been looking at the Rats for a long time now for myself and figure they are a good way to go for him.

It is hard for me to imagine what kind of senarios he would be in to figure out what the best knife/sheath might be.

Was just wondering what you guys think? Definitely looking for your experiences and knowledge here.

Appreciate any help and advise. Thank You!!
 
I guess the first question is the length of blade that you think would be best. I assume this is something that will be integrated into his flightgear.

My first inclination would be the SAR Rat. Vey stout, but fairly compact blade. Unfortunately, this model was a limited release, so finding one could be tricky.

If a large blade is OK, I'd say a Ratweiler, or a Camp Tramp. I am partial to the Ratweiler myself--I prefer the heavier blade and Micarta.

If a smaller blade fits better, and you are unable to find a SAR, I'd go with the Howling Rat. Very stout blade, it is a little smaller than the standard AF Survival knife.

After you choose the knife, the sheath will need to be addressed. I really like Okuden kydex--he does very nice work. If cordura works better, Semper Paratus might be the way to go. Between the two of them, they should be able to get you something that will work well.

Good luck---I am sure someone will be along with some more thoughts soon.

BruceW
 
I just donated a Black/Black SAR Rat with Progunner Black sheath to a soldier with the 10th Mountain in Iraq. I fully believe the knife will be a good combo for someone that needs a hard use knife first, but maybe one day a weapon.

This is the same combo I have been carrying on a regular basis, and it does work really well. You have a tough knife, but not overly large.

That might work really well for him in the cockpit of an aircraft just like it does for me in the confines of the truck, cabinet, and other tight spaces.

Other choices that would work just as well are the Howling Rat, Bandicoot, and Howling Fat. I am carrying these on a regular basis as well, and just finished prying off all the trim around a window with the 'Coot with no problems.

Another possibly big issue would be departure dates and availability. When is he leaving? If the answer is right now we can figure something out if you like one of the above options, so don't sweat it.

Let us know what you decide. Hope this helps.

In may ways I envy someone that will be flying a Blackhawk several hours per day. Being a helo pilot is high on my list of dream jobs, I just wish you could make a decent living at it. :D

T
 
Thank you for the suggestions guys!... A lot to digest. We will see him tomorrow and I will get a better feel as to any preferances. He reports in at what he called Force Com on Nov 20. After in processing he will probably go to Alabama for refershers. So I guess I have some lead time.

I appreciate the info.
 
The answer starts with answering this question: What is the primary purpose of the blade? Self Defense? Offensive? Utility? Survivial? All of the above?

Try to match the tool to the task. The Rats are awesome - no question about it - but they wouldn't be my first choice as a tactical blade in deployment unless I needed a blade for survival where chopping, prying or rugged work is a primary task. Also the sharpening issue comes up often on this forum. How easy is it going to be for him to maintain his knife in the field? Also, on some of the blades the sheath is an issue. My new Howling Rat is an example. I just bought a $90 blade and now have to invest in a $50 aftermarket kydex sheath to configure it for my specific application. I'm confident the investment is worthwhile or I wouldn't be doing this but I wouldn't do the same thing if I was being deployed in Iraq. I'd do something else.

If for self defense and/or tactical offensive work (which I don't see your SIL doing any offensive work) then I suggest a fighting blade like a Bagwell Hell's Belle, Gambler or something designed specifically for defense. You can't beat a clip point or Bowie design for this - especially if you've had some professional training from someone who knows how to use it to it maximum potential.

If the purpose is for a general utility/self defense then you might look at the CS SRK or other similar design with a primary edge and a secondary edge for back cutting - if he is trained in the art of edged weapons self defense - and still can use it as a utility knife.

If the knife is for pure survival/utility then the Rat's get a nodd.

I realize I'm probably outnumbered here with my rationale cuz I really don't know much about knife techology (I'm a self proclaimed newbie) but I have a fairly good grasp on how to use edge weapons for tactical applications. The Rat will work okay but not as effectively as others - and that is all I've got to say about that.
 
I`d say he`d be alright with a Rat. I`m looking for a knife just for general use and was thinking a Ranger RD6 or a camp tramp or coot or howling rat. I don`t wanna busse because I heard rats were just as tough with a smaller price so I`m thinking about getting one of those. What kind of edge does rats have on them. I know rangers have convex but don`t know about rats. Whats the easiest edge to sharpen?

Thank you very much
 
I believe that I understand your thinking, Quirt. However, I disagree. I know that there are knife fighting coinnesseurs out there who have decided what the perfect fighting knife should be, but in all reality:

1. Even in combat, how often does a person get into a knife fight?
2. Wouldn't a person stabbed by a Camp Tramp be just as dead as a person stabbed by an ultra-fighting blade?

Obviously, if knife fighting is a consideration, you wouldn't want something that's too heavy to be able to move around, but I don't think that any of these knives are too heavy -- until you get to the Rat Daddy.

The serious edge here is durability. If you want a knife to depend on, the Rat is where it's at, no question. I would rather see someone in the military have a knife that they can depend on for survival tasks that can still be used in combat, than a knife suited for fighting that isn't up to the task of survival needs.

Once you go Rat, you never go back. :cool:

LFH, you have made a great choice in coming to the Swamp for a gift for your Son-in-Law. There have been many excellent suggestions made here. Any choice that you make here will not be regretted. He will receive a fine gift suited for years of service.

:thumbup: -360
 
360, I agree. A rat would be tougher than a SRK or Helle`s Belle. I read in some magazine that bigger thicker blades were actually better because they made a bigger wound channel.
 
Hey Kryptonite,

There's the point of contention. Sure, a larger hole is going to be more effective, but it's going to take more force to create that hole. Having never stabbed anything but wood, I don't know how much of a difference that would be. But I gotta tell ya, them Rats stab wood real nice. ;)

Another thing that I want to make sure gets noted. I am not singling out any specific knives or makers -- I'm sure they make fine knives for their price.

But Swamp Rats are tougher than any other knife, at any price.
 
kryptonite said:
I`d say he`d be alright with a Rat. I`m looking for a knife just for general use and was thinking a Ranger RD6 or a camp tramp or coot or howling rat. I don`t wanna busse because I heard rats were just as tough with a smaller price so I`m thinking about getting one of those. What kind of edge does rats have on them. I know rangers have convex but don`t know about rats. Whats the easiest edge to sharpen?

Thank you very much
Click to expand...


Can you help me out here, anybody?
How do you search?
Again, thanks.
 
Right now the search function is disabled while Spark updates the forums. Normally there would be a link near the top of the forum. I'd expect it to be functional again soon.

:thumbup: -360
 
Sorry for overlooking the original question Kryptonite. I hate it when I do that.
banghead.gif


Rats come factory with a convex edge. However, I'm the wrong guy to ask about sharpening them. Many have excellent results using sandpaper on a mousepad, or similar. I am accustomed to the v-grind and immediately reprofile my edges when I get a new knife.

One great resource is the Swamp Shack which has a webpage on "keeping it sharp". Another reference might be the Swamp Rat main site. Hope this helps out.

:D -360
 
It is going to take a lot more bandwidth to explain and justify the why's behind my rationale but suffice it to say I'm not advocating the knife would be a primary defensive tool but one that would be used to transition to when a long or short gun malfunctions, runs out of ammo, or if the long/short gun got into a retention situation . . . or when when there no long/short gun available. I, for one who trains in unarmed/edged weapons combatives, would never advocate a knife as a primary unless all other options have failed and I certainly would NOT advocate going "knife to knife" as there is seldom any winners in that situation . . . knives are extremely lethal in close quarter situations and several rounds from an M4 or M9 from a greater distance is the preferred option unless one has access to a LAW, RPG, or M203 round.

Combat is very chaotic and fluid . . .it isn't ever what you want it to be -- it just is what it is. There is a good chance you may not be able to stab . . .besides those trained in edge weapon combatives rarely teach stabbing as a primary tactic for reasons far beyond the scope of this thread. For one, there are two distances of fighting with an edged weapon - cut range and lethal range. I won't go into the specifics but cut range is where you can get cut but it will probably not be immedately lethal, whereas lethal range is where you, as the defender, are within lethal range. If the good guy is stabbing then that means you are in "lethal range" and that means your opponent can inflict the same level of lethality as you - which is not good! Stabbing makes you vulunerable. The word "tactics" means putting yourself at a great advantage while putting your opponent at a greater disadvantage" which means "stabbing" is not a very tactically sound practice.

Because fights are so fluid the situation may and could end up being with you and the threat tied up grappling on the ground and you may be forced to use the implement beyond it's primary design capablities. Yes a Camp Tramp would work just as well for stabbing as another other similar edged weapon but there is more to using an edged weapon than just stabbing . . . much more.

I just said if It was me being deployed, not knowing much about fighting, I would choose a different tool for the job than my Rat if I had a choice . . . but I could think of a lot worse tools than a Rat. I didn't say "don't take it" just match the tool to the task.
 
I understand and agree with most of what you said, about the dynamics of edged weapon fighting. However, I believe that in this case, with an abundance of firearms and rocketry in the desert right now, the possibility of a knife fight breaking out is too slim to sacrifice durability in a blade for this small fighting performance boost.

Your knife fighting training leads you to put an emphasis on self defense when choosing a knife for deployment. My SAR training leads me to put emphasis on utility and survival functions. Perhaps this is just an area that we are bound to disagree with our blade choice. ;)

BTW, if you can find one, you might check out the SAR Rat. I've always felt that blade would make a great fighting blade. I would love to hear your opinion about that.

Cheers.

:D -360
 
If using the blade defensively was a major consideration, the Desert Jack would be an awful good choice if you are going with a Rat. I think finding one of those would be harder than getting a SAR Rat at this point--that is why I did not mention it initially.

Let us know what it's main use will be and what knife and sheath setup you end up with:)

BruceW
 
Great info Guys, I thought we were going to be able to talk yesterday, but he was in transition of trying to turn over his current job to his assistant manager.

Will try and get a better idea over the next week or so.

Thanks for the great info.
 
LFH
Welcome to the Rat's Nest, I'm glad that you stopped by.

I would agree that the SAR Rat would be a good choice, right now they are not listed for sale.

When you decide what you want, drop me a note and I'll do all I can to help you find what he wants

ratknives@insightbb.com

:D:D
 
360 - I am a full time student and find your perspective and insight extremely helpful as I learn. I joined this forum specifically just to listen and learn. You have a lot of expertise that is valuable to me. I will always honor and welcome your comments. I have much to learn and would love the opportunty to spend some time learning SAR from you and the others on this forum which I am very ignorant.

I concur with you . . .there should be a ton of assets/firepower available but when one is in a interpersonal conflict (one on one, one on several) especially when the pilot is not in the safety of his cockpit (stranded on the ground) then one does'nt always have the luxuary of being able to key up a mic or push a button to solve one's problems. The blade shouldn't be selected with that in mind . . .it should be selected as a last ditch when SHTF and it is me against the world either in a fight or in a survivial in the desert/urban enviroment mode.

From the feedback from my students who are deployed right now (granted most are boots or contractors and not pilots) they are telling me having a back up blade has been a valuable asset for a multitude of tasks including a back up to their firearms. In some cases with all the billion's of $$ in hardware we have over there my sources and students are telling me occassionally they've had to unsheath their back up blade and put it to use.

One instructor I train with has been working directly with several units in edge combatives because of the close quarter contact in an enclosed urban enviroment has mitigated the use of longer ranged missles, bullets and other toys and our men are getting very close in their engagements.

Perhaps this knife that Eric mentioned might be better suited for this task.
 
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