I have been using a lansky and a sharpmaker and can get decent edges on blades that aren't too beat up, but I want something a little quicker. i've tried the mousepad method (up to 2000 grit followed by a leather strop) and can get what looks like a nice, shiny convex edge, but it wont get shaving sharp. i've decided i want to go the power route with either the paper wheels or belt sander. which would be easiest for a noobie to get scary sharp edges with?
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which system for a noobie...paper wheels or belts
- Thread starter rlarge10
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W/ the convexed edge, to shave sometimes the angle needs to be closer to 90 to shave. A better test is push cutting thin paper in my opinion.
Get both the grinder and sander
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Take a look at these threads: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=578787 and http://sites.google.com/site/richardjsknives/using-the-paper-wheels
Get both the grinder and sander
.Take a look at these threads: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=578787 and http://sites.google.com/site/richardjsknives/using-the-paper-wheels
for a convex edge you need a belt sander and the wheels. you use the buffing wheel after shaping a convex edge and forming a burr on the belt sander. for a v edge you use the abrasive wheel and remove the burr with the buffing wheel. there is no need for a strop once you're done with the paper buffing wheel.
Paper wheels are probably easier to get along with and learn... if you have to have a convex edge (hatchets, other choppers, or you just have a preference for them), then a belt sander is necessary...
I've had the paper wheels for a little while now and get great results (richard's are better) from paper wheels, and even my okay results were pretty good right away. The belt sander is going to be some new fun and practicing, and looks like it'll take more time to get results with. Also, I worry about heat a little more with the belt sander then with the grit wheel from the paper wheel system.
Following richard j's advice, I convex using a belt sander and remove the burr using the buffing paper wheel with some white compound. I got the sander 1x30 from harbor freight (20% off coupon over the weekend) and the compound and various grit belts from pop's knife supply (a quality guy to say the least... I'll be buying more from him)... oh, also got about a life time of compound from pops knife supply.
For the wheels, I have a harbor freight 6" buffer with the 8" paper wheels. I had bought a ryobi grinder, but I like the extra clearance between wheels the harbor freight buffer gets me.
my opinion: great, scary sharp knives with some practice = paper wheels
great, scary sharp knives with a bit more time and practice allowing for convex edge or to fix a really abused blade, belt sander for the grind and paper buffing wheel to remove the burr and polish...
seriously, buy the wheels.. you won't be sorry!
I've had the paper wheels for a little while now and get great results (richard's are better) from paper wheels, and even my okay results were pretty good right away. The belt sander is going to be some new fun and practicing, and looks like it'll take more time to get results with. Also, I worry about heat a little more with the belt sander then with the grit wheel from the paper wheel system.
Following richard j's advice, I convex using a belt sander and remove the burr using the buffing paper wheel with some white compound. I got the sander 1x30 from harbor freight (20% off coupon over the weekend) and the compound and various grit belts from pop's knife supply (a quality guy to say the least... I'll be buying more from him)... oh, also got about a life time of compound from pops knife supply.
For the wheels, I have a harbor freight 6" buffer with the 8" paper wheels. I had bought a ryobi grinder, but I like the extra clearance between wheels the harbor freight buffer gets me.
my opinion: great, scary sharp knives with some practice = paper wheels
great, scary sharp knives with a bit more time and practice allowing for convex edge or to fix a really abused blade, belt sander for the grind and paper buffing wheel to remove the burr and polish...
seriously, buy the wheels.. you won't be sorry!
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The Grizzly is a little to fast IMO for proper sharpening. There are methods to slow it down like others have done on the Delta 1x42". I have the Kalamazoo like the one in the video on u tube below. I think its the best belt sander for the money out there. Check out the video as it should help. Good luck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLjFjT4vYsM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TLjFjT4vYsM
the sander is basically a deformable hone... the belt has 'give' and will end up making the edge more appleseed shaped instead of a flat v grind.
There are videos on you tube covering a belt sander used for knife sharpening. If you can't find them, post back and I'll try digging one or two up.
There are videos on you tube covering a belt sander used for knife sharpening. If you can't find them, post back and I'll try digging one or two up.
)
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Read this post by Jerry Hossom http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=4916570&postcount=78
I sharpen everything on the belt sander once then maintain the edge on loaded strops ( a few swipes everyday after I use them). If you follow Jerry's post to the letter your learning curve will not be as steep as you think. The secret for me was to go to flea markets and yard sales and buy every cheap knife I could find and convex them. You will screw up a few knives so don't start with your favorite knives. Heat build up is not really a worry if you keep a bucket of water right beside your grinder and dunk the blade after every pass (dry the blade before making another pass, ask me how I know
). The paper wheels are great, they make for a stupid scary knife and Richard J is one of the most helpful people on the forum. I just prefer the sander for my sharpening simply because of the easy maintained convex edge.- Joined
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For a beginner I recommend neither. Power equipment removes more steel than is necessary and can really destroy a blade if not used properly. Learn to sharpen with a manual system first.
I have all of the sharpening systems here - ranging from a $1000 belt grinder to circular powered water stones to paper wheels. I use an Edgepro for my own knives. It doesn't take long and gets knives as sharp as they can be with no risk of making matters worse. I've been sharpening knives for decades and have sharpened 10's of thousands of them. I still use the Edgepro on my own knives.
I have all of the sharpening systems here - ranging from a $1000 belt grinder to circular powered water stones to paper wheels. I use an Edgepro for my own knives. It doesn't take long and gets knives as sharp as they can be with no risk of making matters worse. I've been sharpening knives for decades and have sharpened 10's of thousands of them. I still use the Edgepro on my own knives.
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Knife Outlet just looking at your web sight I can't find $1000.00 belt grinder what kind is it?
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I don't sell belt grinders. I was just referring to my own personal one. It is a Bader brand - the type knife makers often use for grinding blades.
OMG this is easy!! it took me about 10 minutes to figure out, but now it takes me under 2 minutes per knife and it will mow hair. I have one knife(cheapy) that i have never been able to sharpen. its a razor know!! just a little background...i'm a sharpening retard. i used the lansky, sharpmaker, etc with mediocre results. sometimes they would shave reluctantly, but usually not. these wheels are idiot proof.
I've don't have any experience with paper wheels, but I do use a 1X30 belt sander, you won't burn up your tip if you use the proper grit for each job and use a light touch to it. I would suggest you learn freehand sharpening before moving on to a powered sharpener, if you stuff up blades with stones, then you're going to stuff up blades on a belt sander, but 50X faster.
A man where I go to pick up stuff uses a quartz rod (I think it either produced light or heat in it's prior life) and he can get a shaving sharp edge on pretty much any knife I hand him.
A buddy of mine has a pocket sized sharpener of some sort. It unscrews from inside the handle and becomes maybe 4-5" long. He can get blades pretty darn sharp.
I have a Lansky Alumina Ceramic 8" Stick, and a pair of Crock Sticks and about the best I can do is fairly sharp on most steels and pretty sharp on carbon steel.
I am extremely low budget.
Where had I best go from here?
A buddy of mine has a pocket sized sharpener of some sort. It unscrews from inside the handle and becomes maybe 4-5" long. He can get blades pretty darn sharp.
I have a Lansky Alumina Ceramic 8" Stick, and a pair of Crock Sticks and about the best I can do is fairly sharp on most steels and pretty sharp on carbon steel.
I am extremely low budget.
Where had I best go from here?
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Let me observe some things that are common misconceptions about belt sanders for sharpening.
A common myth is that they remove too much steel. They only NEED to remove enough steel as is required to sharpen the knife as does ANY sharpening method. If it removes more than that, you're using an abrasive that's too aggressive. Many people do that. For sharpening most knives I use 600 grit or even 15 microns (~1200 grit) and sometimes I just use the leather belt with white compound. Nothing equals a belt sander for stropping - nothing. An edge would have to be pretty far gone to need anything more than 600 grit, but you'd need an aggressive stone to sharpen that edge as well, and some diamond stones are VERY aggressive.
On the subject of heat. An 8" paper wheel running at 1800rpm (many run at 3600) is moving at ~3800 surface feet per minute. The belt on a HF belt sander, 3.75" drive wheel, is moving at just over 3500 SFPM so it's about the same, and if you are using a 3600rpm grinder for sharpening wheels, it's running at over 7000sfpm! A fixed speed Bader BIII belt grinder, something a lot of knifemakers use for both grinding and sharpening, has a 6.25" drive wheel with an 1800rpm motor and runs at about 2900sfpm. Further, a slack belt on a sander is much softer than a hard paper wheel, so there is less friction = less heat.
And, there is no limit to the size knife you can sharpen. Try sharpening a 7-8" blade on a Lansky. Better yet, try shapening a machete on anything. The belt sander does sharpen anything, regardess of length. Even with a shorter blade, the sharpening angle on a Lansky changes as you move away from perpendicular. That means the point of the knife is being sharpened at a more shallow angle than you think, something you probably don't want because the point is the most fragile part of the blade.
Most people who comment negatively about sharpening on a belt sander have never used one. Many are simply justifying what they are already using. Some are selling something else, like these - http://www.knifeoutlet.com/shop/10Browse.asp . A HF belt sander and all the belts you need cost about $100.
I'm not selling belt sanders or belts, and honestly I don't really care what you use. All I'm trying to do is help people and try to keep the nonsense to a minimum.
A common myth is that they remove too much steel. They only NEED to remove enough steel as is required to sharpen the knife as does ANY sharpening method. If it removes more than that, you're using an abrasive that's too aggressive. Many people do that. For sharpening most knives I use 600 grit or even 15 microns (~1200 grit) and sometimes I just use the leather belt with white compound. Nothing equals a belt sander for stropping - nothing. An edge would have to be pretty far gone to need anything more than 600 grit, but you'd need an aggressive stone to sharpen that edge as well, and some diamond stones are VERY aggressive.
On the subject of heat. An 8" paper wheel running at 1800rpm (many run at 3600) is moving at ~3800 surface feet per minute. The belt on a HF belt sander, 3.75" drive wheel, is moving at just over 3500 SFPM so it's about the same, and if you are using a 3600rpm grinder for sharpening wheels, it's running at over 7000sfpm! A fixed speed Bader BIII belt grinder, something a lot of knifemakers use for both grinding and sharpening, has a 6.25" drive wheel with an 1800rpm motor and runs at about 2900sfpm. Further, a slack belt on a sander is much softer than a hard paper wheel, so there is less friction = less heat.
And, there is no limit to the size knife you can sharpen. Try sharpening a 7-8" blade on a Lansky. Better yet, try shapening a machete on anything. The belt sander does sharpen anything, regardess of length. Even with a shorter blade, the sharpening angle on a Lansky changes as you move away from perpendicular. That means the point of the knife is being sharpened at a more shallow angle than you think, something you probably don't want because the point is the most fragile part of the blade.
Most people who comment negatively about sharpening on a belt sander have never used one. Many are simply justifying what they are already using. Some are selling something else, like these - http://www.knifeoutlet.com/shop/10Browse.asp . A HF belt sander and all the belts you need cost about $100.
I'm not selling belt sanders or belts, and honestly I don't really care what you use. All I'm trying to do is help people and try to keep the nonsense to a minimum.
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Thank you, Jerry Hossom.:thumbup: