White #2 steel chipping on Spyderco ceramic stones

[klineh]

Forgive me if this has been covered in a past thread, I hunted around but couldn't find anything regarding this particular issue.

I recently picked up a Tojiro Shirogami Santoku 165mm in White #2 paper steel, my first go round with the steel.

This evening I got to work on thinning out the edge using my set of Spyderco 8" ceramic benchstones.

I worked my way up from the medium to fine to ultrafine stones at the same fairly low angle that I sharpen all my carbon kitchen knives, I'd guess a little under 15 degrees per side. Stropping on glossy magazine paper for final deburring.

When checking the edge by slicing phonebook paper I'd get a few satisfactory slices, then it'd get noticeably more jagged feeling with successive slices and microchipping along the whole of the edge would become apparent under the light. I've had this happen with other carbon blades and have successfully solved the chipping problem with a microbevel on the ultrafine stone at a slightly more obtuse angle. That did not help in this case, even with alternating strokes with the lightest possible pressure and using water as a lubricant. Looking at the edge with a 10x loupe, the edge was still coming off the stones chippy.

I went back to the fine stone to take off some more steel better establishing a more obtuse edge (estimated 20 degrees per side). Again, ended up with the same chipping problem.

I'm thoroughly perplexed. I know waterstones are the stones of choice for Japanese blade steels, but the Spyderco ceramics are the only stones I currently own and would really prefer not to have to purchase a new stone for this one knife. Any thoughts, similar experiences, and solutions would be greatly appreciated.

 

[awestib]

Yes, I had very similar experience with a Murray Carter neck knife on Spyderco ceramics many years ago. Not sure anymore but I think it was Blue steel #1. I switched to japanese waterstones and problem solved. I actually remember writing/reading about it here on BF and got some feedback. Should have bookmarked it...

 

[klineh]

Yes, I had very similar experience with a Murray Carter neck knife on Spyderco ceramics many years ago. Not sure anymore but I think it was Blue steel #1. I switched to japanese waterstones and problem solved. I actually remember writing/reading about it here on BF and got some feedback. Should have bookmarked it...

Thanks for the response.

I guess that leads to more questions:

If I have to take the plunge into waterstones, any good economical recommendations for someone that is accustomed to the low maintenance low mess of ceramics?

and

Aren't Shapton Glass Stones actually ceramic stones primarily used on Japanese carbon steels? And I believe I've read of people using ceramic hones on Japanese carbon kitchen knives? Or am I recalling this wrong. Is there a difference with the ceramic of Shaptons or some hones that keeps edges from chipping out like they do on the Spydercos?

 

[willis]

My Caly 3's VG-10 blade acted like that on ceramic read on here about using less pressure when using that steel to avoid causing a burr and that ended the problem.I use a Norton fine India or DMT's on it now.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

It shouldn't chip when sharpening at 7+dps. IIRC (I gave mine away) these Tojiro's knives around 62rc. I make white#2 and blue#2 knives with hardness 63-65rc. They don't chip on diamond, ceramic stone&rod, while sharpen with bevel anywhere from 5 dps and up.

Recommend you flatten the apex (i.e. remove about 0.1 - 0.25mm of edge) and try sharpen again at 12-15dps. If problem persists, I think you got a lemon. However in addition, you can try wet sand paper on granite or glass backing, if still chippy then waterstone won't help ya.

 

[klineh]

It shouldn't chip when sharpening at 7+dps. IIRC (I gave mine away) these Tojiro's knives around 62rc. I make white#2 and blue#2 knives with hardness 63-65rc. They don't chip on diamond, ceramic stone&rod, while sharpen with bevel anywhere from 5 dps and up.

Recommend you flatten the apex (i.e. remove about 0.1 - 0.25mm of edge) and try sharpen again at 12-15dps. If problem persists, I think you got a lemon. However in addition, you can try wet sand paper on granite or glass backing, if still chippy then waterstone won't help ya.

Interesting, thank you. I'll give it another go tomorrow and let you know what happens.

 

[Jason B.]

It has to do with the density of the ceramic stone, its pushing harder on the steel than the steel is pushing on the stone. I've experienced this with high hardness 52100 and ZDP-189, it will not go away until you switch stones.

Shapton stones use ceramic abrasive so they cut quickly but they are not nearly as hard as a spyderco ceramic. Not the same type of stone in the least.

Here is my thread from a while back with photos describing the issue. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/653142-Ceramics-problem

 

[klineh]

It has to do with the density of the ceramic stone, its pushing harder on the steel than the steel is pushing on the stone. I've experienced this with high hardness 52100 and ZDP-189, it will not go away until you switch stones.

Shapton stones use ceramic abrasive so they cut quickly but they are not nearly as hard as a spyderco ceramic. Not the same type of stone in the least.

Here is my thread from a while back with photos describing the issue. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/653142-Ceramics-problem

Thanks so much for the info, my doubts are confirmed. Bummer!

I guess I'll be setting the Tojiro aside until I can scrounge up the funds for a combo waterstone...

 

[klineh]

Just a quick update:

I finally got around to picking up a Norton 1000/4000 combination waterstone and took the Tojiro to it last night. As predicted, no more chipping. Problem remedied!

Thanks everyone for pointing me in the right direction.

 

[chugokujin]

Sorry to hear about your experience with the Spydie stones. Don't give up on em just yet. I normally use em as finishing stones
for my knives. I've used the UF stone for many of my Japanese gyutos. Haven't done my ZDP189 one yet, but my AS Takeda and BLUE#1 Gassan
have very thin edges. Both at Rc 62. I've had no chipping. I don't use these stones dry. I use a dab of dish liquid along with a splash of water.
You may wanna give it a try and see how that works.

 

[Sadden]

I have noticed that the white spyderco stones can have an uneven surface texture sometimes. Theres videos of swirl marks and the like on the surface of the stone. I would suspect that this would cause uneven pressure along the apex , causing some chipping. I might try flattening and see if the problem persists.

 

[klineh]

Sorry to hear about your experience with the Spydie stones. Don't give up on em just yet. I normally use em as finishing stones
for my knives. I've used the UF stone for many of my Japanese gyutos. Haven't done my ZDP189 one yet, but my AS Takeda and BLUE#1 Gassan
have very thin edges. Both at Rc 62. I've had no chipping. I don't use these stones dry. I use a dab of dish liquid along with a splash of water.
You may wanna give it a try and see how that works.

I keep the Spydercos wet when in use but have never tried soapy water. I'll have to give that method a go before I write them off for good on high hardness steels! Thanks for the advice.

I have noticed that the white spyderco stones can have an uneven surface texture sometimes. Theres videos of swirl marks and the like on the surface of the stone. I would suspect that this would cause uneven pressure along the apex , causing some chipping. I might try flattening and see if the problem persists.

Yes, one side of my fine stone has a raised edge lengthwise and a couple bumps on it, so I avoid using that side. However the other side appears quite uniform, and the ultrafine stone even more so. I was getting consistent chipping along the entire edge of the blade coming off the good side of the fine, as well as either side of the ultrafine...

I've got an old beater of a XC DMT benchstone somewhere that I may take to the lame side of the fine stone and see what happens. Thanks for the suggestion.

In the meantime, I'm having fun trying to get the hang of sharpening on the Norton 1000/4000 combo waterstone. I'm getting sharp edges but no where near what I can manage on ceramics. More practice is needed!

 

[HeavyHanded]

...

In the meantime, I'm having fun trying to get the hang of sharpening on the Norton 1000/4000 combo waterstone. I'm getting sharp edges but no where near what I can manage on ceramics. More practice is needed!

On the Norton waterstones I get a very strong result by doing a few backhone passes to finish it off after removing the burr. They are not the hardest stone, so finishing with a leading pass is difficult to get the best from them. Also, their 4k is still fairly aggressive - have to jump to the 8k for a real high polish and the 4k is a great stopping point for EDU.

 

[BluntCut MetalWorks]

OK, after I put some more thoughts about chipping issue. Chipping probably results from clumpy/large cementite (Fe3C) in high & ultra high %C Carbon knives. Same as saying that these knives are very low toughness even though they could be quite hard. I encountered this lower bound cast-iron sort when working white#2 knives, especially poor/botched ht. This 60+rc Tojiro knife shouldn't be that brittle if ht was decent. I had no chipping problem, grind my white#2 knives post-ht (fully hardened) at 63+rc on 60 grit ceramic belt running at full tilt speed on a 2x42 grinder.

Just for test, I use 3 lbs of pressure to steel a 64.5rc 10dps blue#2 & white#2 paring knives against idahone (~1.2K) and edge of spyderco medium stone. no chipping problem.

Aahh funny, I just remember what happened to a tojiro nakiri white#2 I gave to my sister. Her son tried to open a eating/green coconut (Thai's white fiber, mostly white shell = soft, not black crunch hard stuff) to eat the soft coconut flesh. Resulted with two 5mm deep & 5mm long chips next to each other. If this knife is thinner (it's actually quite thick), those chips would be bigger.

 

[klineh]

On the Norton waterstones I get a very strong result by doing a few backhone passes to finish it off after removing the burr. They are not the hardest stone, so finishing with a leading pass is difficult to get the best from them. Also, their 4k is still fairly aggressive - have to jump to the 8k for a real high polish and the 4k is a great stopping point for EDU.

A belated thanks, this piece of advice helped me out. :thumbup:

Last weekend I mustered up the courage to give the Tojiro another go on the ceramics. It was in need of a quick touch up after a week's use having last been sharpened on the Norton 4k. I decided to follow chugokujin's advice and used plenty of water and dishsoap for lubrication on the Spyderco ultrafine stone. Lo and behold, I achieved a screaming sharp, chip-free edge! Five dinners later, the edge has held up just fine.

So in this case, it would seem that at least the ultrafine ceramic can be safely used when properly lubed up.

I may experiment more in the future, but I've just picked up an Arashiyama 6k that I'm playing around with as my finishing stone right now. This whole debacle has me descending deeper into the waterstone rabbit hole...

On a side note: Can anyone tell me if I really need a low grit waterstone to round out my current set-up (Norton 1k/4k, Arashiyama 6k)? Or can I get by without any adverse effects using a Norton Crystolon for reprofiling/repairs and then proceed with the waterstones?

Thanks all for your input.

 

[aarondj30]

I have a dagger san mai white #2. I used the Spyderco sharpmaker and I have all kinds of little tiny chips all over the edge