"Who are you going to believe, me or your own eyes?"

[BruceMack]

I have been a hobby woodworker for ~30 years and I'm good at hand sharpening chisels and plane irons. When I got interested in knives I felt this experience wasn't applicable to the curved edge of a knife. I haven't the dexterity to reprofile or do final sharpening unguided, so have used the KME and the Sharpmaker and have been happy with the results for a working edge - e.g. cardboard. However, I'm fussy about best sharpness so I test the edge with 110-pound weight card stock and with glossy magazine paper, using tactile and sound feedback. I have not been able to regularly achieve the edge I want on all knives and steels though using the ultrafine Spyderco rods, diamond spray or paste on masonite or MDF.
In woodworking, I have esteemed Paul Sellers, a British woodworker and teacher, who has made a living doing both for about 50 years. Paul's method of sharpening ("How to Sharpen with Diamond Stones", YouTube) involves rapid freehand back and forth strokes on 3 diamond stones successively, followed by 30-40 heavy pressure trailing strokes on a chromium oxide-laden leather strop block. Paul emphasizes the importance of this last step and smoothly slices a piece of paper with the edge of his newly sharpened chisel. The video is worth seeing.
Though many good woodworkers on my forums scoffed at Paul's method, citing imprecise and rounded bevels resulting from his "whaling away", I tried this with my chisels and planes and was very pleased with the quick results and the final refinement with the chromium oxide strop. The blades are O1 or A2 steel.
Knife steel is more complex and I have read that chromium oxide will not serve for final refinement of particle steels. Many experienced sharpeners advise diamond media on a hard strop material, noting that pressure will indent leather and round the apex. My own experience suggested some improvement of the edge with a light strop on leather/ CrO2.
Today in frustration at my ineptitude and expecting nothing I took my Spyderco PM2 with S30v blade, Steel Will Modus D2 and Manly Peak S90v and gave each 30 alternating hard strokes on my strop, approximating the 15° bevel angle. The edges are great. All pass my subjective test for sharpness.
I hope this happy experience continues and invite the skeptical to try it and comment.

 

[miso2]

Could you post the link to the video?
I am curious.

 

[BruceMack]

Could you post the link to the video?
I am curious.

 

[Wowbagger]

Though many good woodworkers on my forums scoffed at Paul's method, citing imprecise and rounded bevels resulting from his "whaling away",

yuuuuuuup

I hope this happy experience continues and invite the skeptical to try it and comment.

I've seen the appalling video. Way too much muscle effort and motion for results that can be bettered on a Varitas jig.
The Edge Pro Apex is the equivalent for knives.
My method for wood or knives : about six passes per side with three different stones = hair whittling and better edge geometry. Zero stropping. Mr Sellers does a whole lot more passes than my 18 per side before he ever gets to the stropping.
Why ?
Old school. I like hand tool woodworking (old school) but a simple hand tool that improves my edges to this degree is indispensable in my book. Meaning the Varitas Jig or the Edge Pro Apex.

PS: hand tool woodworker here
PPS : here is a LINK > > > to my edges producing highly reflective finishes on END GRAIN on bubinga. To clarify there is no finish on the end grain that is bare wood after being hand planed. All the work done from but joinery to thicknessing and final surface before finish was ALL hand driven edge tools.
Page down to the fifth photo . . . what do you think ? Good enough for the girls we go with ?

 

[Ourorboros]

Interesting, he is purposely rounding the edges on his chisel.
If he's been doing this for 50 years, he's been doing this when it was all novaculite and coticle. I wonder if he started using his full body weight when sharpening back then.
I don't sharpen chisels, but I bet they sharpen a whole lot faster on diamond stones that.
I also don't like the curved path of his arm when stropping.

If it works for you, whatever. I seem to manage without that much stock removal. I won't argue about the need to take out the burr, that will certainly change your results. I'd take it out after each stone though. You won't just feel it after the fine stone, you'll have your biggest burr after the coarse.
I will do this with approximately zero blades, ever.

 

[lutejones]

Hi, I’m part of the hand tool woodworking clan too
@43gradosnorte on Instagram

In my opinion today’s trend tend too much to machine precision even with hand tools, heavy planes with heavy hard steel blades. To an immaculate finish in every surface.

It’s not practical for me, are the edges better? Sure. Are my edges or Paul’s sufficient? Sure
Yesterday I was finishing an oak table top a little knotty, I had to sharpen several times both the jack plane and the smoother, with the freehand approach was 30-60 seconds and back to work the edges shaving easily arm hair.
Sharpening jigs and water stone progression could be great for some things, but they’re not worth the time for the day to day.
Besides by controlling the convexing of the bevels and the camber on the plane irons you can tailor them to the wood or job at hand.
Whatever works for you.

With knives and stropping is more or less the same, rough grinding fast on the stones and heavy pressure stropping, gets you a great clean edge, though a little bit rounded.
If you spend more time refining the edge on the stones getting rid or any burr then you can strop lightly on hard medium to get a crisper sharper edge

It depends.
Edited to add picture

 

[HeavyHanded]

If it works, go with it!

I'm an amateur woodworker and a lot of what I do is pretty utilitarian - have made a jelly cabinet, medicine cabinet, couple of "rustic" table tops. A good bit of getting the most from a woodworking tool is how its used and how well its set in the plane. And then knowing the wood you're using and setting the edges and depth accordingly.

My father in law made a fair amount of excellent furniture in his time, after he passed I couldn't find a single sharpening tool aside from a very old combination India stone. I'm still convinced there are a bunch of finer grade stones in that workshop somewhere. Looking at his tools, many have working edges and some are worked to a bright finish. I have yet to find a strop of any sort either. They were all definitely sharpened by hand though, if something needed more precision than that, he did it on a mill.

Most of the time I'm really going after a chisel it probably hit a knot or even a finish nail using it to pop trim off a doorway. Keep meaning to do a quick video showing how I quickly reset a chipped chisel but can't bring myself to ding one on purpose and never have the studio ready when it happens accidentally.

 

[BruceMack]

I disagree with Wowbagger.
Paul's entire demo takes a couple of minutes, even while teaching us mortals.
Jigs take too long and the positioning of blade projection is way too fussy, requiring going through each grit (stone) for resharpening. Just try to match a bevel to a 6000 grit waterstone for light resharpening.
The heavy use of the strop reflects going from a 1200 grit diamond to 10,000 grit Cr02 and getting a glossy bevel. This is sharpening, not honing. It works.
I don't know if this works for knives but I like my early results. I have an extra leather strop which I will charge with 0.5 micron diamond paste and use in the same manner. It's only an edge. If I screw up, it can be resharpened traditionally.

 

[Obsessed with Edges]

One can get away with heavy pressure on a strop, if one's touch and feel is experienced enough to bias the held angle in such a manner that almost all of the heavy pressure is distributed across the width of the bevel behind the edge, with the 'cheeks' of the edge itself just barely grazing the strop. This is how someone who's been sharpening for decades can get away with it. It's also easier if the 'bevel' is convexed, or 'cambered' as Paul Sellers mentions in his video, as the compression of the leather substrate better conforms to the shape of the convexed bevel, meaning the contact with the apex is more flush than it would be if dead-flat bevels were being pressed heavily into the leather, resulting in a lot more rolling of the leather around & over the apex.

Also coming with experience, is finding that most anything can work as a strop, for the sake of removing the burr and leaving a clean, crisp apex on most any steel, high-wear or not. Most of the real work in diminishing the burr, to a point it's thin enough to remove easily, is done with the stones before the blade gets taken to the strop. If the stone work is good, then whatever strop or compound material is used becomes less important, as the burr or wire at the edge is already weak enough to be scrubbed away by most anything, from bare leather, to paper, wood, denim, etc. This is how a strop of CrOx compound can seemingly 'work' on high-wear steels, as most of the real work has already been done on the stones, leaving the choice of strop or compound almost moot.

Still another factor in minimizing the rounding effect with heavy pressure, is biasing the choice of compound used for stropping in favor of less aggressiveness. Green compound isn't all that aggressive to begin with (not so hard, and very fine in size), so the detrimental effects of heavy pressure on a compressible stropping substrate aren't as severe. Try doing the same with something like black compound (emery or SiC, much harder and coarser than green CrOx) on the same leather with the same pressure, and an edge can be rounded off in just a few passes. Knowing the difference, and making a wise choice in that regard, is also something that comes with experience.

 

[Wowbagger]

I couldn't find a single sharpening tool aside from a very old combination India stone. I'm still convinced there are a bunch of finer grade stones in that workshop somewhere. Looking at his tools, many have working edges and some are worked to a bright finish.

Maybe he was using some sand paper and or fine honing with the grit off the stone you found using paper stuck to the stone ? That's also kind of your thing right ?

 

[Wowbagger]

Just try to match a bevel to a 6000 grit waterstone for light resharpening.

Could you please clarify what you mean here ?
Do you mean it is difficult to do or that the 6,000 is enough and no need to go through each other grit ?
Thanks

 

[Wowbagger]

in such a manner that almost all of the heavy pressure is distributed across the width of the bevel behind the edge,

See that just goes against my better judgement. I suppose it makes things sharp but the amount of loading of the strop from polishing this wide bevel seems . . . just wrong or bad form.
Why not just polish / sharpen the area right on the edge ?
I mean I was talking about the Japanese working the whole bevel but the stone is so much easier to clean than a strop.
I suppose if one just keeps building up the layer of metal on the strop with more polishing abrasive.
A gooped up layer on a strop just makes me do the dog thing
That and I just detest strops. I've moved on.

Rounding the edge on a bevel down blade is even worse than rounding the edge on a bevel up (I am partial to bevel up for performance (rigidity on difficult wood) and for speed of changing blades (if you look at my link I have a pile of blades and change them out rather than go resharpen every little bit) . . . if you want to talk about speeding up the work .
Sure stropping is OK for free form cutting such as carving.
For chisels and plane blades stropping and free hand sharpening is just a mistake.
I have proved it to myself too many times over the years listening to people tell me this same old thing and then I go back and try it again thinking there must be something I missed or am not "getting".
Nope.
Jigs make better cutting LONGER LASTING edges for when it counts.
Jigs are WORTH a bit more time if that is what you say I am paying for it with.

Show me some work you have done with free hand sharpened and stropped edges in similar wood to what I posted . . .
I dare you

PS: the oak table is nice thanks for posting it

 

[BruceMack]

Could you please clarify what you mean here ?
Do you mean it is difficult to do or that the 6,000 is enough and no need to go through each other grit ?
Thanks

A light touch up is sometimes enough to adequately sharpen a blade but my jigs (Veritas, side-clamping, Kell) did not permit visual corroboration of exact bevel contact on the flat. After fiddling with sub-millimeter adjustments of blade projection I could not achieve a congruent angle and therefore would abrade the heel or the tip rather than the entire bevel. I settled for microbevel on microbevel on microbevel or I had to do a full grit progression to resharpen a slightly tired edge.
I found that the convexity of the bevel with the Sellers method assured total bevel contact with the stone without degrading sharpness. It was faster for me than the jig. Now, I have a CBN wheel on my DeWalt grinder and hollow grind everything. The 2 point contact assures exact free-hand registration on the stone. Sharpening on 2 cast iron plates with a jump from 14 micron to 1 micron diamond paste followed (yes) by Cr02 stropping quickly restores any plane iron or chisel to greatness

 

[HeavyHanded]

Maybe he was using some sand paper and or fine honing with the grit off the stone you found using paper stuck to the stone ? That's also kind of your thing right ?

Yeah, but it wasn't his thing. He very well might have been using a belt grinder, I know he was using it to thin kitchen knives. Will have to look some more next time I'm over there (house is still in the family and his shop is a bewildering warren of small cubbies and stuff hiding in plain sight). He might have even done his finish work on small pocket stones, IDK...

Rounding the edge on a bevel down blade is even worse than rounding the edge on a bevel up (I am partial to bevel up for performance (rigidity on difficult wood) and for speed of changing blades (if you look at my link I have a pile of blades and change them out rather than go resharpen every little bit) . . . if you want to talk about speeding up the work .
Sure stropping is OK for free form cutting such as carving.
For chisels and plane blades stropping and free hand sharpening is just a mistake.

I agree with the above re stropping for the most part. My paper strops are nearly as hard as a resinoid waterstone, and even then I keep it to only a handful of light passes unless I'm doing utility work. But I've gotten very good results hand sharpening plane and chisel blades. I have a buddy that makes jewelry boxes who threw his guide into the trash and now uses the chisels I gifted him, even though they are cheaper steel he likes the edge I put on them better - life time free sharpening service in his case.

Where I fall down is setting the camber properly and then getting the depth just right. I also have trouble setting the chip breaker just so - I've never been trained by anybody and when I worked in a cabinet shop I was relegated to the table saw and delivery/installation. There's more to good results than how sharp and precise you can get the cutter edge.

The other problem I have is often working with pine, which can be a lot of trouble to finish large areas with just a plane. Smoothing cherry or maple, stuff with a fine grain and hard, I can get pretty nice translucent curls the full length of the pass - not in your caliber by any means but good results for a hack.

I would agree again that it didn't come easy and I spent a fair amount of time learning the best way to hold my chisels and plane irons to get the best results. Most folk would be a lot better off using a guide, there's a learning curve with that too but nothing like learning to freehand.

 

[garry3]

Can't say I sharpen my chisels like Paul does, but the man knows his way a round a wood shop. He can sharpen his chisels however he wants with out any criticism from me.