Who's at fault, hunter or guide?

JD Mandrell

JD Mandrell

Joined
Apr 20, 2001
Messages
18,423
While watching a repeat of a big name hunting show on cable TV a few days ago, I saw the star hunter, shotgun deer hunting in my home state of Illinois, with a paid guide from the place he was hunting.

He is from out of state, and was hunting on a private hunting land, where folks can pay to come stay and hunt deer.

I noticed that he broke a relatively minor Illinois hunting law, by not wearing blaze orange, but instead blaze orange camo' which Illinois specifically forbids during deer season. (I don't get it either, but it's in there)

This sparked a good discussion among some fellow hunters, and while we all agree that ultimately, it's him that would likely get a ticket for it, some felt that part of what he is paying the hunting area and their guide for, is to instruct him in local laws, since he's from out of state, and that the guide is partly to blame.

Should the guide have made sure the out of state hunter was in compliance?
 
guide is at fault - at the least he should have told the hunter about the law.
Even better would be to have a spare cheap orange vest handy to loan the customer.
 
Those TV shows kill me. The pro hunter goes to a deer ranch with a pro guide. They pick out the deer they want to shoot. This deer will cost you so much...

I wish the pro hunter would go to public land and film . I would watch that. Even if hes not successful.
 
1066vik said:
guide is at fault - at the least he should have told the hunter about the law.
Even better would be to have a spare cheap orange vest handy to loan the customer.
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dipbait said:
Those TV shows kill me. The pro hunter goes to a deer ranch with a pro guide. They pick out the deer they want to shoot. This deer will cost you so much...

I wish the pro hunter would go to public land and film . I would watch that. Even if hes not successful.
Click to expand...

I agree and disagree with vik the knowledge of local laws lay on you, but the guide should have one of those cheap vests to lend in the case that one of his clients come unprepared.
Dipbait I have an issue with fully able people going to a high fence ranch and picking out a deer to shoot and then going home and saying that they took it far and square. Most of what you see on the outdoor or sportmans channel is not high fence, let me tell you from experience just b/c you pay to go hunt dont mean you are coming home with a deer. I dont know many outfitters have a trophy fee like high fence places do.
 
The hunter is ultimately responsible for his or her conduct while hunting. It is YOUR responsibility as a hunter to be familiar with ALL hunting regulations while afield. The blaze orange thing gets tricky, though, as some states say its required for public land only, some say while hunting- but not if you are in a tree stand during archery season, some say blaze camo is okay so long as it has so many square inches of orange... I agree that the guide should know the laws and be prepared to inform, correct, and accommodate out of state hunters, but the hunter is the one with the gun- and the one that is going to get the ticket (or worse). And, it's really not that hard to find the info. Its right there on the Illinois DNR site- I looked.
 
Ridge-Runner said:
I agree and disagree with vik the knowledge of local laws lay on you, but the guide should have one of those cheap vests to lend in the case that one of his clients come unprepared.
Dipbait I have an issue with fully able people going to a high fence ranch and picking out a deer to shoot and then going home and saying that they took it far and square. Most of what you see on the outdoor or sportmans channel is not high fence, let me tell you from experience just b/c you pay to go hunt dont mean you are coming home with a deer. I dont know many outfitters have a trophy fee like high fence places do.
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And, hiring a guide does not necessarily mean that you hunt on private land. Many guides hunt public land- some to the exclusion of private land...
 
As a guide, I think it's the responsibility of the guide, even though the hunter would be the one to get the ticket. It's like the driver getting an open container ticket for a passenger who has an open container of alcohol. This scenario seems like a simple mistake to make. The guide may have told the hunter to wear blaze orange, but forgot to mention that orange camo doesn't count. The more I talk to other guides, the more I realize that you have to assume every client is like an 8 year old no matter what they tell you. That's the only way you can cover your bases. If you make assumptions about the hunters, what they know, their experience, etc, you run the risk of losing your license or getting shot by accident.
 
I wouldn't assume that the guide did not do everything he was supposed to do to inform the hunter of the requirements.
The hunter may have disregarded his advice in order to project a certain image for the camera.
 
dipbait said:
Those TV shows kill me. The pro hunter goes to a deer ranch with a pro guide. They pick out the deer they want to shoot. This deer will cost you so much...

I wish the pro hunter would go to public land and film . I would watch that. Even if hes not successful.
Click to expand...

Tred Barta. Still does lots of public land stuff even though he's now in a wheelchair.

To the point of the thread, though. I'd say it's the hunter's responsibility and he should have read the regs. However the guide should know the laws inside out and should have said something. This makes him look like a dope.

---

Beckerhead #42
 
With TV you never know ! One of the camera crew might have said the camo vest looks better on film !!
The worst stuff is incompetant hunters. A recent one had a woman hunting capebuffalo, dangerous for sure. She was obviously not familiar with the gun as she kept fumbling with it and the PH always checking it.That's no safe for dangerous game!!
Another hunt there was a woman who twice missed an animal at long range .The guide then said she didn't have experience in long range shooting --but he had told her to shoot !!
 
I agree with those who have basically said this; The hunter is ultimately responsible for knowing all of the applicable laws. The guide should have pointed out the hunter's breach. The hunter would have been the one to receive the citation. Then the guide probably would have felt stupid.
 
the guide is not your mother . The guide should have mentioned it but some clients know everything, A good guide has alot of responsibilities and picking out your clothes is not one of them he can only tell ya what to bring he cant pack for ya
 
They are both at fault. The hunter should know the law where he is hunting and a paid guide should not continue to act as a paid guide for someone who is hunting in violation of the law. As a former LEO I would find them both equally responsible. Would a driver"s ed teacher continue to let a student drive who did not have a permit? Would a shooting range officer allow a clearly illegal gun to be shot as his range without taking action? I believe the guide is as guilty as the hunter on this one. The guide is subject to the same violation to me, and oh boy would he be liable on a civil basis if the hunter was injured due to lack of proper clothing.
 
Well I am not a hunter, but am a fisherman. Everytime I have hired a guide to take me fishing; the guide has always let me know what local regulatiopns say. Of course I needed to get the license by myself, but the guide is the one that tells me what is legal to keep, etc..

So I say the guide is as much at fault as the hunter. Unless of course he told the hunter the rules and the hunter chose to ignore them..
 
JParanee said:
A good guide has alot of responsibilities and picking out your clothes is not one of them he can only tell ya what to bring he cant pack for ya
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True, but in this case, is the orange vest "clothing", or a piece of safety equipment mandated by state law?

In Illinois, we can only use a shotgun, muzzle loader or handgun, if the hunter shows up at the truck that morning with a .308 rifle, wouldn't the guide have to say.."No"?

tonym said:
So I say the guide is as much at fault as the hunter. Unless of course he told the hunter the rules and the hunter chose to ignore them..
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Tony brings up a good point. If the guide had made them aware and the hunter refused, then should the guide refuse to take the hunter into the field until they complied?
 
Bear Claw Chris Lappe said:
Tony brings up a good point. If the guide had made them aware and the hunter refused, then should the guide refuse to take the hunter into the field until they complied?
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Ethically? Sure. But as the OP stated it was " repeat of a big name hunting show on cable TV a few days ago, I saw the star hunter.

Now if the guide refuses to take the TV star on a hunt because of the hunter refusing something, how long do you think the guide would be in business. Word of mouth is everything. If the big star is critical of the guide off camera, wouldn't the guide suffer.
 
M. McCord said:
Ethically? Sure. But as the OP stated it was " repeat of a big name hunting show on cable TV a few days ago, I saw the star hunter.

Now if the guide refuses to take the TV star on a hunt because of the hunter refusing something, how long do you think the guide would be in business. Word of mouth is everything. If the big star is critical of the guide off camera, wouldn't the guide suffer.
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If a guide takes a big star, or a neophyte on a hunt that results in citations for breaking local laws, how does that impact his future income? Ethicly, IMHO, a good guide should refuse service to a client who insists on breaking the law. To do otherwise is to be complicit in the violation. Guides are expected to know the local regs inside and out.

One would assume that a good guide would be prepared for clients who brought inappropriate equipment, or insisted on breaking the law, no matter how extreme or trivial. That is where the professional part comes in. Otherwise, the non-local hunter might as well slip Bubba a ten dollar bill and a six-pack to ride him around in his truck and let him shoot out the window, in-season or out, day or night.
 
Codger_64 said:
Guides are expected to know the local regs inside and out.
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Well said, that's the part that kinda had me wondering, it would seem to me, that, that is part of what your paying him for.

But I'd hate to be the guide that crossed a big name, and in this case very loud, with a VERY loud fan base.

Since it was a repeat from last fall, I doubt there is any harm in naming the "star hunter", sadly it was "Uncle Ted". :(
 
From the DNR website, took all of less than 2 minutes to find...

Clothing: Any person attempting to take or taking deer by use of a
firearm shall wear, when in the field, a cap and upper outer garment of
solid blaze orange color, displaying a minimum of 400 square inches of
blaze orange material.

IMO, if you are hunting or fishing alone or with a guide, friends or Uncle Ted you as the hunter or fisherman should do the research and comply with the requirements. With all the resources available today, it is not usually too difficult to find the info.

I feel for the guide in this situation. I think he does bear some responsibility but not all, yet his livelyhood could be seriously impacted if he was to refuse to take out a high profile client because of what some would consider a minor violation. Also, he may have mentioned something and the hunter chose to ignore him and he is a guide, not a sworn officer.
 
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