Why A New Survival Knife?

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Sep 9, 2005
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I am thinking that the new RC-5 is for the Air Force SERE instructors. The old "bolt knife" has served well, but it did need upgrading to overcome some weaknesses. But didn't the military just go through years of testing to come up with the Gerber LMF 2? It has a glass breaker, an insulated handle, a built in sharpener in the sheath, a tough 5" partially serrated blade of 12C27 steel, a fine steel. So what was it about that knife that the SERE boys didn't like? I am happy to see RC get to make the new knife, but I am just curious about why they didn't go to the Gerber they already had. There must have been something about the LMF 2 that they didn't like.
 
I am thinking that the new RC-5 is for the Air Force SERE instructors. The old "bolt knife" has served well, but it did need upgrading to overcome some weaknesses. But didn't the military just go through years of testing to come up with the Gerber LMF 2? It has a glass breaker, an insulated handle, a built in sharpener in the sheath, a tough 5" partially serrated blade of 12C27 steel, a fine steel. So what was it about that knife that the SERE boys didn't like? I am happy to see RC get to make the new knife, but I am just curious about why they didn't go to the Gerber they already had. There must have been something about the LMF 2 that they didn't like.

Every branch is different. It is my understanding the LMF2 is primarily an Army knife. I'm glad to see the AF move to the RAT.

I was in the AF as a Security Force member and NEVER saw anyone carry that bolt knife. I've had quite a bit of interaction with pilots and flight crew and they primarily bought their own knife if they carried one. In fact the only time I'ver ever seen anyone carry one is on a hike with a BF member :D

I've had some friends go through SERE and even when deployed still only carried a folder.

I'm only talking about my small experience in my small corner of the world. Please don't take my statements as all encompassing as I'm sure things are done differently all over the world.
 
From what Jeff said, it's NOT the official SERE knife. It's a knife some AF SERE instructors came up with as a "Grail" knife for the application. So, it doesn't replace the issue knife.
 
Having served in both the AF and Army, I have seen the old pilot's suvival knife carried a lot. But that was long ago and far away. Believe it or not, I was actually issued the larger combat knife from Camillus when I was a munitions specialist with the 56th Special Operations Wing. I broke a few of them. But I know some Marine Recon guys who carried the pilot's knife. Go figure. When I was in the Army I carried a Gerber Mk2 because it looked cool. Never used it. Being a LT, they wouldn't issue me anything sharp, just five fully loaded M60A1 tanks and a 1911 pistol. I did see other commercial knives carried by army and air force personnel on occasion. I was thinking that the Gerber had an air force version of the LMF 2 as well. I'm just curious. I plan to buy a RC-5 soon. If my daughter gets selected for the flight crew job she is seeking, I will give it to her.
 
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From what Jeff said, it's NOT the official SERE knife. It's a knife some AF SERE instructors came up with as a "Grail" knife for the application. So, it doesn't replace the issue knife.

Thanks, Cpl. That makes sense. You ought to see some of the wicked knives the PJs carry. I should have guessed. SERE instructors are knife nuts, too.
 
You ever meet two guys who had the exact same concept of their perfect survival knife?

Hell, give me 10 minutes and I'll come up with 11 different 'perfect' designs. ;)
 
You ever meet two guys who had the exact same concept of their perfect survival knife?

Hell, give me 10 minutes and I'll come up with 11 different 'perfect' designs. ;)

That's true, Rotte. I probably own 11 different "perfect" designs since I collect survival knives. I thought the new RC-5 was replacing a relatively new survival knife for the armed forces, but it is not. I would still be interested in what features or capabilities the SERE folks wanted over and above the existing Gerber model. Maybe it chops better or maybe they preferred carbon steel for use with fire steels or something. I am guessing there is more to the design features of the RC-5 than just wanting something different from the standard issue. Those SERE guys are true experts in wilderness survival. Training our airmen in those skills is their job. I would love to hear their reasons for the RC-5 being what it is. It appears to be a more robust design than many survival knives.
 
That's true, Rotte. I probably own 11 different "perfect" designs since I collect survival knives. I thought the new RC-5 was replacing a relatively new survival knife for the armed forces, but it is not. I would still be interested in what features or capabilities the SERE folks wanted over and above the existing Gerber model. Maybe it chops better or maybe they preferred carbon steel for use with fire steels or something. I am guessing there is more to the design features of the RC-5 than just wanting something different from the standard issue. Those SERE guys are true experts in wilderness survival. Training our airmen in those skills is their job. I would love to hear their reasons for the RC-5 being what it is. It appears to be a more robust design than many survival knives.

I agree with you. I also find it a little too robust for my needs. I fnd my 4 inch fixies work for what I like. Im a hiker and don't like to have too much weight.
 
That's true, Rotte. I probably own 11 different "perfect" designs since I collect survival knives. I thought the new RC-5 was replacing a relatively new survival knife for the armed forces, but it is not. I would still be interested in what features or capabilities the SERE folks wanted over and above the existing Gerber model. Maybe it chops better or maybe they preferred carbon steel for use with fire steels or something. I am guessing there is more to the design features of the RC-5 than just wanting something different from the standard issue. Those SERE guys are true experts in wilderness survival. Training our airmen in those skills is their job. I would love to hear their reasons for the RC-5 being what it is. It appears to be a more robust design than many survival knives.

I imagine some of it is:
- Wanting something that is robust enough they won't break it in any likely SERE scenario, including forcing doors and whatnot in urban areas.
- Ease of maintenance. Carbon steel is pretty easy to sharpen on anything rough.
- Glass breaker might be useful, and isn't in the way if you don't need it. Makes a good "ouchie" for hitting someone also.

They probably don't care about the chopping ability, as you probably won't be building big shelters and big fires in a SERE situation, it'll give your position away. Cutting up small bits of tinder and wood for small fires should be enough.

5" is long enough to fight with, but not too long to make carrying in an aircraft (remember it was AF SERE) a problem.

Can you do most of that with an RC4 or 6? Sure. But again, they probably wanted a thick blade to ensure it doesn't break.
 
Do any of the SERE instructors ever post on this forum? I'd love to get their ideas on the RC-5. Seems like I remember Jeff posting that they wanted a .25" thick blade and maybe the saber grind, too. When I get mine I'll to a comparison with the Gerber just for fun. The RC-5 looks to be built like a tank.
 
Can you do most of that with an RC4 or 6? Sure. But again, they probably wanted a thick blade to ensure it doesn't break.

Anybody ever report breaking a RC-4 or 6? I'm sure I could if I tried. But has there been a failure with normal usage of the knives? My RC-4 seems like it could handle a lot of hard use. How much of an issue would this really be?
 
Do any of the SERE instructors ever post on this forum? I'd love to get their ideas on the RC-5. Seems like I remember Jeff posting that they wanted a .25" thick blade and maybe the saber grind, too. When I get mine I'll to a comparison with the Gerber just for fun. The RC-5 looks to be built like a tank.

I'll say this much - I sure do wish I was RAT enlightened when I bought my Gerber LMF a couple years back. I never really liked that knife - the grip is too thin and uncomfortable, the knife balance is not very good to say the least. I'm sure the blade is tough(but I've never tested it) but I'd take a RAT any day!!
 
Anybody ever report breaking a RC-4 or 6? I'm sure I could if I tried. But has there been a failure with normal usage of the knives? My RC-4 seems like it could handle a lot of hard use. How much of an issue would this really be?

How many have done an actual SERE E&E?

IF a knife breaks on us, we might have to pack up and go home.

If a knife breaks on them, in extremis, they might die.

It's not about likely, it's about being the only knife they'll have in a very bad situation.
 
How many have done an actual SERE E&E?

I snuck out of work once... ;)

If a knife breaks on them, in extremis, they might die.

It's not about likely, it's about being the only knife they'll have in a very bad situation.

Yes, equipment failure is a bad thing. But that is true for many situations, not just sneaking back to friendly territory. I'd be more concerned with boot failure than knife failure. Gimme an indestructible GPS first (with extra batteries).

What special demands will you put on a knife during an E&E trip that don't exist on a remote canoe trip? What's the end point? If .25" is good, would .333" be better? I once had a Busse Steel Heart--indestructible at .333". But it was way too heavy to be practical, I never used it.

I just don't see the need. In no situation do I want a broken knife. But there's nothing special about the SERE situation. The threats are different, but the knife tasks aren't.

Thinking about it now, I've never broken a knife accidentally. I once beat the shit out of a K-bar to see what it could take, but it didn't break until I really abused it with malicious intent.

When I did SERE training I used a Kershaw folder. Worked great, never doubted it, still have it 20 years later. Most of the knife tasks we did, we wouldn't do in an actual E&E situation, e.g. make a fire, carve a spoon. In an actual E&E situation, you don't need much more than a SAK or one-handed folder. Sebenza would be my choice now. Anything more would be gravy. An RC-3 or 4 would be the cat's proverbial pajamas.

Look too at guys like the early pioneers and mountain men. They relied on their knives--no PJ's out looking for them. And they carried flimsy Green River blades. Blades that became legendary. Those are what, 1/8" maybe? If they needed .25" of [inferior] steel, they could have had it made. But a Green River was more than ample. (I've got a 20 year old Green River knife in my kitchen drawer right now, still wicked sharp)

Like I said before, I don't see the need for a .25" chunk o' steel. Especially since I haven't heard of anyone breaking their RC-3, 4, or 6 with normal use. Even heavy use. If you feel better with an RC-5 on yer hip, that's cool. That's why they make it. I'm just being skeptical that that thickness of steel is really needed. And I trust my other RAT's. :thumbup:
 
If you feel better with an RC-5 on yer hip, that's cool.

You feel even better when it's in your hand. :D

And the DAGR GPS system is extremely impressive, considering it's Mil-Tech. Just means it costs $2,300 dollars per unit. But it works.

As far as why they wouldn't like the Gerber LMF II? Just personal preference and tastes.

As far as why they went for a .25" blade? No clue. But don't forget that generally, in big organizations, committees, and the military, if it makes sense it won't get done.
 
I went through USMC SERE about 12 years ago carrying a Gerber multitool. Honestly, that knife worked great! The pliers are always useful for something; whether it is cooking, making a snare, or whatever. I also remember using the saw blade and file quite a bit.

I think the terrain in which you are SERE'ing would have a huge impact in what knife would be best suited. My experience was in the desert somewhere outside of Camp Pendleton (I really have no idea where since they blindfolded us on the way out there). I can say that a longer blade would have been nicer in some applications, but all-in-all, I would want another multitool if I had to do it again.
 
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