Why are "tacticals" so much money?

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Bungwrench

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I was just looking around a few sites that I like to buy from. I also like Spyderco knives for the most part. I noticed that their ZDP-189 Calypso Jr is going for about $70.

Why is this do you think? Are they charging for the steel? I look at that knife and wonder how a plastic handled knife cost that much money? It doesn't have steel liners like the Delica 4 does. Are they charging that much just because of the steel?

It seems like almost twice as much work would go into a Case or Queen stockman, yet I can get even the Queen in D2 cheaper than a plastic Calypso Jr with ZDP.

Seems to me they are making a TON of money on each knife. It just doesn't seem like a lot of work goes into making a plastic handled Calypso Jr with ZDP-189. I'm not picking on that particular knife. There are a lot of knives that you could substitute in instead of that knife. I just happened to notice that because it just came out.

I guess, at least to me, it seems like the value is in traditional knives.:confused:
 
A couple of serious answers to that question.

1) The molds to make those plastic handles cost $40,000 to $60,000 dollars. That is a substantial investment to recover.

2) That ZDP-189 steel is available in very limited quantities, and the cost for the steel alone is higher than any other cutlery steel. Add in the manufacturing problems caused by steel with that kind of abrasion resistance, and the proprietary heat treat (no free market on that one, only one place that has been told how to do it)
and you wind up with an expensive piece of steel, even before you pay the freight and import fees to get it here. Maybe when CPM perfects their equivalent to ZDP, it will cost less. I'd love to have a four-blade Congress pattern made of the stuff.
 
ZDP is a butt expensive steel and as said, the plastic (FRN actually) molds are rather pricey. Some makers show how much work goes into their blades (see the Chris Reeve DVD)...it shows why the prices are as such.
 
I carry a little spyderco dragon fly that I use for all my daily mundane tasks, that little blade is out and done its work before you finished fishing that stockman out of your pocket. Hardly much difference in the prices.....and beauty? beauty to me is performance. These knives are in another league from the traditionals. To me its the difference between a horse and buggy and a modern car.
 
It's apples and oranges.

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I don't have experience with ZDP-189, but I carried a Calypso Jr. in VG-10 almost exclusively for a couple of years. (IIRC, it cost me slightly over $70 new from SFO at the time.)

I'd be happy to loan this knife out to anyone who wants to check it over, BTW... just shoot me an email. :)

Nowadays, one of the main knives in my EDC rotation is a Case medium stockman with SS blades. It's a great knife, but comparing it to a Spyderco doesn't make sense. :confused: They're totally different.
 

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shipwreck said:
I carry a little spyderco dragon fly that I use for all my daily mundane tasks, that little blade is out and done its work before you finished fishing that stockman out of your pocket. Hardly much difference in the prices.....and beauty? beauty to me is performance. These knives are in another league from the traditionals. To me its the difference between a horse and buggy and a modern car.
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LOL, that's so dern funny!. Mundane chores,, perhaps,, but I'll skin, gut and slice 'n dice up a rabbit with my 3 blade hair popp'n sharp stockman for our supper stew while you're still on your second box cutting chore with you lil dragon fly .. Sheeesh, when will they learn?? :rolleyes:
 
shipwreck said:
I carry a little spyderco dragon fly that I use for all my daily mundane tasks, that little blade is out and done its work before you finished fishing that stockman out of your pocket. Hardly much difference in the prices.....and beauty? beauty to me is performance. These knives are in another league from the traditionals. To me its the difference between a horse and buggy and a modern car.
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Agreed. For day to day tasks, I find lockbacks much more practical, but the traditionals more fun/nostalgic. I enjoy carrying both. You can get both slippies and lockbacks at the $70 or cheaper, depending on what you want.

Just got some more Queens from knifecenter, they averaged right around $70 or so, but are really nice with Abalone and Mother of Pearl.
 
They appeal to Armchair Commando's. When these Armchair Warriors close their eyes they can see themselves hacking up anything that comes near them or scares them. They see the knife defeating whole Battalions of armed soldiers. If its a Cold Steel, Battle Tanks are no threat... just punch the knife through the armor & dispatch the occupants. A knife like this is worth its weight in Gold! Hehehe.
 
Today I'm carrying a Queen stockman in abalone and D2. Yesterday I was carrying an assisted-opening Kershaw Bump titanium framelock with S30V steel.

I love 'em both. The kershaw and other tacticals I have are much quicker to open, use and return to my pocket. I can do it one-handed. When I'm doing chores around the house, the tactical is more convenient. The locking blade is also safer when cutting through tricky materials (breaking down 30 boxes while exhausted-stupid). The slipjoint is prettier, more elegant, perfectly capable of cutting things, but slower. I carry it during working hours because I know that when I need it in an office environment, it will be a very deliberate, controlled action.

So they each have their place.
 
I have several tactical folders and they are very good knives. They are like Glock handguns. They work very well but they have no class and the modular construction is ugly.

I prefer to enjoy things like knives and guns these days and not just use them.

I don't really enjoy the fact that my superdutycoolmankiller folder can punch holes in the hoods of cars.
 
And traditional folders aren't expensive? I have seen quite a few traditional knives that fall into the same price range. The abalone handle queens all run $65 to $75 with SRP's of up to $105. Pearl handles are in the same price range and bone handles are just a tad less. I have a feeling that folks who are primarily into tactical knives would ask why on God's green Earth would you buy a $75 knife that you can't open with one hand, that you can't clip to your pocket, and is inherintly unsafe due to the lack of a lock. Myself, I like it all tacticals anhd traditionals. And to be honest, traditionals do have a heart that tacticals don't seem to have. ;)

When you buy anything, what are you paying for?

The Brand. A number of years ago I bought a Muleskins Jacket. It was significantly less expensive than the Carhart branded equivelant, though the only difference was the tag. Muleskins was a 90's budget label used by Carhart.

Manufacturing and incidental costs paid by the manufacturer: Nothing is free- not electricity, staff salaries, rent, machinery, advertising, designers, R&D, raw materials, and plastic molding isn't a cheap endeavor.

Manufacturer Profit- your not in business for the fun of it. Business exists for 1 reason- to make profit.

Wholesaler / Distributor Profit: Self explanatory

Retailer Profit: See above
 
it's whatever the market will bear. that being said, i just don't understand the demand for the Strider-type cord wrapped tent pegs.

i carry a Dalton auto on duty, but after it's usually an Uncle Henry stockman and/or a Helle Nying.
 
The Calypso Jr with ZDP-189 isn't really a tactical, it is a low production run high tech knife for the connousieur. It is a thin blade that will cut like a stockman, but it has a lock and some extra width for a little extra blade security. It has a miracle alloy blade without paying the price for a custom knife. That lightweight handle makes it carry as easy as a stockman. Sal at Spyderco makes up a run of 2,000 to 4,000 pieces just to amuse guys at Bladeforums etc. The low production volume keeps the price up. I own several Calypsos with various blade alloys just to see how the alloys perform. I haven't been a mall ninja for 40 years now.

What I don't understand are high priced Case knives.
 
I always carry a slipjoint but sometimes carry a one-hander too. When you don't have both hands to open a knife a thumbstud is a real saver. Ever have a hold of a piece of line or rope that needs cut and you can't let go?
Greg
 
Some of those expensive 'tacticals' have some high grade materials in them that actually do cost more and are harder to machine and work with. There are plenty of inexpensive ones with typical low priced stainlesses that aren't all that special. Even a good old traditional slippie with exotic blade steels can get quite costly. ATS34, D2, VG10, S30V, etc, price gets on up there. Best bargains are Queen made in D2, $30-$75. I just don't like most tacticals. Spydercos Kiwi and Kopa are the only knives they make that I even halfway like. Benchmade's Apparition is attractive, but too expensive for me for a one blader knife.
 
mckgreg said:
I always carry a slipjoint but sometimes carry a one-hander too. When you don't have both hands to open a knife a thumbstud is a real saver. Ever have a hold of a piece of line or rope that needs cut and you can't let go?
Greg
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That's what originally got me using one-handers. I would often find myself needing to cut something, to include rope, and I'd have a handful. Being able to grab my knife and pop it open, cut, and close one-handed was real nice. I also got real spoiled. When I shifted back to slippies it took me a while to adjust.

Nowadays I plan my cutting a little better, or perhaps just think about it before I get my hands full. I also don't find myself in those situations as much anymore. That's probably more of a work/lifestyle change. When I do want a one hand opener I slip my Bone Stag, Russlock in my pocket. It isn't as fast as my AO Kershaw and it doesn't clip to my pocket, but it is still easy to get too, doesn't catch the clip and pull out, and carries a lot easier. It still opens, cuts, and returns neatly.

Depending on the knife/maker I would think that some tactical/moderns cost a bit due to a few factors. Wonder steels and the amount of that steel that goes into those long, thick blades, plus perhaps the extra wear/required machinery grinding those steels might be one factor. Since many of them seem to have Knife Cool Name designers, the initial deal, plus royalties to the designer probably add more. And, the higher profit margins that can be made on them in the marketplace contributes too I imagine.

Others are just way the hell overpriced for what they are.

Slippies are usually patterns that have been around for ages and there aren't the extra "design(er)" costs. There are set frames for most models so different lines mean different handles more than anything else. (Same for taddys I know). Plus, there have been cost cutting measures, that also claim to be improved steels. Look at 440C versus 420HC. My understanding is that 420HC is much cheaper for stock than 440C, or even A for that matter.

Granted, there is still the workmanship going into the traditionals. However, I imagine some of those fellows that do that stuff are so practiced they can do it in their sleep at a pace that would make us shake our heads in wonder.

I remember touring a big printing plant in Portland, Oregon while attending classes for Graphic Design. There was a bunch of old fellows sitting at a big light table cutting litho film for separations. They were fast and flawless with those knives. I was recalling my own frustrated attempts at cutting seps and watching these masters zip through like they were nothing. And the precision was amazing.

It does make you appreciate just what you can get in a slippie for the price when you think about it.

The tactical guys want the latest, greatest design with thick, tough blades they can hack, hammer, and pry with though most of them won't ever have a real reason to do so. The traditional guys lean towards cutting tools that cut well, show the workmanship of their heritage, and are as much a pleasure to look at and hold as they are to use. A properly sprung slippie without half-stops works just as well as one that has them. However, I get a special pleasure in feeling a knife snap neatly into half-stop when opening or closing. That crisp hesitation just talks quality to me.

End of ramble. ;) If you can't find a point, no pun intended, to the above, it's okay. I'm not concerned if there is. :D
 
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