Why aren't all good knives laminated?

S

seacucumber

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Feb 14, 2013
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I haven't yet used a laminated knife. As I learn about knives, I become aware of the mistakes I've made. I used to sharpen wrong. The ZDP Spyderco Dragonfly knife I got might not be right for my tasks (mainly shaving pine that a table saw misses and cutting polyurethane glue) because it chips. Now I'm wondering whether I've made the error of buying all single steel blades.

Do all laminated knives (even the good ones) delaminate?

Suppose we have 2 knives. Both are the same shape. Both have ideal steels for the job. One is laminated with a thin core, and the other is 1 steel. Both are 5 cm wide when new, and both are used until they are unusable. They both get reground many times. Which one is more expensive? You must include the cost of sharpening. Lets assume that both knives are used until they are <1.5 cm wide.
 
Heh?

I suppose the one that is more expensive is the one that costs more to buy.

As far as cost of sharpening all that is is the initial cost of your sharpening system. So that's the same for any steel.

So I don't know what you are getting at.

Even if you clear those up, you are not saying what the steels in the laminated steel are. Is the interior steel hard to sharpen? Easy to sharpen? Does it hold an edge well or not?

And I don't know what ANY of that has to do with the question in the title of your thread.

Maybe you should step back and think a bit more about what you are asking. There my be a good and well-posed question in there somewhere. :thumbup:
 
Delamination would be the separation of the layers that make up the laminate. With steels I don't think this could happen as they are welded/forged together.

Edit, also, a laminated knife isn't always a good knife. They are used for a specific purpose where the steel in the middle retains a really sharp edge longer but lacks the strength to resist breaking without external support.
 
Got a cheap Katana imitation where the multilayered steel separates in one spot. Not really something i want to hit at a target to see if its useable. Maybe some impurities between layers when it was forged together.
Heard that kind of blemishes even happens in some old actual Samurai swords which of course makes them less valuable than without it.
Anyways in not too cheap and modern blades I never heard of delamination.
 
There is no reason for laminated steels if you are using a quality steel. Modern steels are good enough that lamination is not necessary.

Lamination used to be used to get the most performance out of limited resources. The highest carbon hardest steel could be used for the cutting edge, while softer, lower carbon steel could be used on the sides, or spine, etc.


Lamination allows you do do several things, however. You can use a core steel that is prone to staining, but has another property you like (like edge retention, and use a stainless steel for the sides.

Often, the inner core is also harder.


Many custom makers use stainless sides, and higher carbon centers. This allows for a fantastic contrast once the high carbon core is etched.

I have used laminated steels before, and these days, unless I am looking at a custom, where the lamination is used for a sweet pattern in the steel, I don't need laminated steel.
 
Question/clarification. Is a laminated blade different from a damascus blade? They are both two different steels blended into one blade. Is the laminated one purpose driven while damascus is cosmetically driven?

Is there really a difference?
 
dr_fosg8 said:
Question/clarification.
Is a laminated blade different from a damascus blade?
They are both two different steels blended into one blade.
Is the laminated one purpose driven while damascus is cosmetically driven?

Is there really a difference?
Click to expand...

Yes. Damascus is several layers, and possibly several steels, not just 2-3, can be 20 or 200.
The laminated isn't exactly "purpose driven", not sure what that means in this case. It is a manufacturing process that some Japanese makers use and have used because they may believe has some advantage. A simple laminated blade is one steel encompassing another.
I would ask as far as your question regarding differences, is there a difference you can see or notice between S30V and S35VN? How about ATS-34 vs 154CM?
 
I might be wrong but I thought the primary reason for lamination was too give flexibility to the blade while having a hard (and brittle) cutting edge. Differential hardening can achieve that as well.

The shorter the knife, the less that matters. If the knife isn't harder'n woodpecker lips it matters less. Anyways, as has been said, other factors become more important then.
 
Imo.. if well made, it shouldn't matter much if the blade is single steel or laminated, modern steels being what they are.
That being said, I wonder of things such as.. a blade with a core of elmax and a body of.. oh, say aus8? Might be interesting :)
 
Always thought composite blades were an interesting modern take on this.

1456672.jpg
 
I wonder about the choice of a knife for this. If you are shaving pine missed by a table saw or even trimming polyurethane (I am assuming over run from gluing based on your mention of a saw), a wood scraper, chisel, or plane are better tools.
 
I've seen two steels.laminated(MurrAy Carter) but forget the name used and three steels which I'm sure we all know the name from cold steel. I like fallkniven an their 2 New steels wouldn't trade em for anything out there
 
With modern stainless steels you don't need it. With all respect to Cold Steel, their San Mai III steel has a core of VG-1 steel sheathed in a lower grade stainless which offers no real advantage that I can see over a pure VG-1 blade. I think Spyderco's Superblue knives use 420J2 steel sheathing the carbon core, which does protect against corrosion.

The classic Japanese swords were laminated because basically they had crap steel and made the best of the stuff they had. They weren't flexible because of the different hardness of the steel layers. A Western longsword, forged from one piece and taken to a spring temper to absorb shock could also be flexed without taking damage, a necessary feature when your target could be wearing full plate. Apparently many Katana were made with European sabre blades when Japanese sword makers got access to European markets in the 19th century.

In your scenario the laminated blade will probably be dearer because of the increased manufacturing costs. San Mai III is certainly more expensive than SK-5 or O-1 variants of the same knife. I don't think you'd gain anything useful for the extra money.

Basically just buy a single material knife that does the job you need and doesn't cost the Earth. I think the Dragonfly is too nice a knife for the work you describe. Perhaps a Cold Steel Tuff Lite would be better. It's cheap enough and tough enough that you can beat on it without worrying about breaking it.
 
RevDevil said:
Yes. Damascus is several layers, and possibly several steels, not just 2-3, can be 20 or 200.
The laminated isn't exactly "purpose driven", not sure what that means in this case. It is a manufacturing process that some Japanese makers use and have used because they may believe has some advantage. A simple laminated blade is one steel encompassing another.
I would ask as far as your question regarding differences, is there a difference you can see or notice between S30V and S35VN? How about ATS-34 vs 154CM?
Click to expand...

I guess my question was is there a difference in how the steels are joined, Damascus being forged welded, versus a laminated blade since the op was asking about layer separation.
 
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dr_fosg8 said:
I guess my question was is there a difference in how the steels are joined, Damascus being forged welded, versus a laminated blade since the op was asking about layer separation.
Click to expand...

I saw a documentary on Japanese steel smelting and swordmaking and the differing steels were forge laminated. I state the obvious of course.How else would it be done back then? I don't know how it is done now.

I wonder what the process is on those composite blades.

The Wikipedia entry on Damascus steel claims the original stuff was superplastic and very hard. Always been the grail of swordmaking.

I was watching a Society For Creative Anachronism battle demonstration a while back and a very good lady combatant was talking about the status of the warriors in Medieval society. I responded, "Ah, but the metalsmiths were *magic*."
 
Mora laminated blades are excellent! All carbon with an inner core hardened to approx 60-61RC they are real slicers.

Look good too! :D

MoraClassic2andOpieGarden_zps5cac9edb.jpg



The 1% carbon core steel patinas more readily than the outer laminate.
Core_zpsbb66b93b.jpg
 
I have some san mai knives. I like each of them and they do have noticeably good edge retention. For example my BK-11 san mai has always outdone my BK-14 in edge performance. The san mai become as sharp as anything I own with a little time on the stones.

I'm under the impression a laminated blade is stronger than an identically sized single steel blade, something about the combined properties of the sandwiched steels. I know my BK-11sm has always felt to be a sturdier knife than the 14 in use.

I have no problem with san mai to make a knife a little better. I only see real value in the bush/survival or cooking categories though. Although, I'm also a big fan of the Kershaw Leek composite for EDC...
 
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