Why buy a Tomahawk when. . .

V

Vanguard.45

Joined
Sep 22, 2002
Messages
76
I could go to Home Depot or Lowe's and buy any number of "camp axes" or hatchets or long claw hammers ("framing hammers") and have not only a versatile weapon for defense, but a tool actually made to withstand the rigors of actual work outdoors???

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE to look of classical hawks, but wonder whether or not there is any practical value to owning a hawk versus just a common tool. As a former police officer, I saw the results of a man attacked with a claw hammer, and, trust me, it is a VERY formidable and dangerous weapon. I mean, with one of the hardware store axes/ hatchets, I get the following advantages:

1. Plausible deniability ("Yes, officer, I bought this at a hardware store and use it around the house. Unfortunately for the burglar, it just happened to be the closest thing at hand.")- with a tomahawk, you have a harder time with this one, especially since many are named the "Vietnam" Hawk, or the "Viking" Hawk, or the "Death Dealer" Hawk, or whatever. With a camp axe, it's called "Stanley".

2. Durability

3. Cost is SIGNIFICANTLY lower for a hardware store hatchet than for a "tomahawk"

4. I would actually USE it for chores since I don't have so much money in it

5. They aren't made to be "pretty", so I'd be more likely to actually use it

6. Lots of variety in sizes, weights, materials, etc. available at the hardware store

So, what do you think?

I'm just wondering, since I am interested in acquiring a tool of this type, but saw a HUGE selection of tools I would not want to encounter in a fight at the local Home Depot! What are the logical reasons to buy one of the more specialized "hawks" in light of the above??

Thanks for your wisdom in advance!

Vanguard.45
 
personally i buy my tools for using in the bush, so that is my first criteria. good edge grinds, good shapes, good handles.

for self defense, i think that a hammer, even a smaller ball peen hammer, would make a terrific weapon. or a section of broom handle, or a wrench, or a number of other perfectly useful common tools.

i think, and i am not speaking from experience, but the impression that i get is that alot of the tactical hawks are bought because of a certain cool factor that you get from having a really high tech/precision machined weapon handy for those just in cases.
 
Vanguard.45 said:
With a camp axe, it's called "Stanley".
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Vanguard.45 said:
3. Cost is SIGNIFICANTLY lower for a hardware store hatchet than for a "tomahawk"
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You get what you pay for. Good hawks can be had for $20 to $30.

You'd look like a dweeb at a reenactment carrying a hammer on your belt.

If you want to be known as Thor you can throw your hammer as well.
 
Personally... I buy a hawk as a small ax. I don't like a hatchet's handle, I prefer a straight handle. Plus, throwability is a cool factor. Ever bored on a camping trip? Start target practice. Should make the long afternoons a little bit more fun.

I also do reenactments. They were kinda common then and look pretty badass
 
you can buy a hawk with a very functional hammer poll then you have both the usefull hammer, use full cutting edge and a fun thrower.
CS has the Riflemans hawk with hammer poll for around 25, heavy.
or the trailhawk with a functional hammer poll, much liter.
 
Vanguard.45 said:
1. Plausible deniability ("Yes, officer, I bought this at a hardware store and use it around the house. Unfortunately for the burglar, it just happened to be the closest thing at hand.")- with a tomahawk, you have a harder time with this one, especially since many are named the "Vietnam" Hawk, or the "Viking" Hawk, or the "Death Dealer" Hawk, or whatever. With a camp axe, it's called "Stanley".
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Irrelevant. If deadly force is warranted then it doesn't matter what you use, whether its a cheapo hatchet or the hammer of thor.
 
Plus, if something goes bump in the night, Senor Mossberg is sitting beside the bed, under the couch, in the garage, and Mr. Colt is on the hip. I highly doubt I would be contemplating legality and plausible deniability of a tomahawk vs. a shotgun at that point...
 
I seriously doubt a lot of things get bought around here for any reason but "I wanna". Isn't that the reason we bother working, to get what we want? I know a couple of guys that won't pry their wallet from their pants unless it's for a purely practical purpose, and they are very boring people.

There's plenty of good reasons to buy a 'hawk other than just for the much-promised zombie invasion.
 
STAGE 2 said:
Irrelevant. If deadly force is warranted then it doesn't matter what you use, whether its a cheapo hatchet or the hammer of thor.
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Unfortunately, a jury of your peers may not agree. An example is having used 'the ol' double barrel 12 gauge' to defend your home versus an AR with some trimmings ('evil black assault rifle'). Not that I necessarily agree with the all the conclusions of the original post, just a thought.
 
Vanguard : I personally go for the nostalgia and somewhat mystical qualities of the Tomahawk. Mostly I collect the more modern versions. But I also throw them, use them in the garden, hunting trips and fishing trips , at the cabin and around the fire pit. Believe me they get used I really enjoy them.
Also have a few straight claw hammers....
 
So far, it seems the primary stated reasons for buying some sort of custom tomahawk vs. a hardware store axe/ hatchet are as follows:

1. Coolness (never to be underestimated)
2. Reenactments (I agree. "Stanley" on your belt would definitely get more than a few "that's pathetic" looks.)
3. The "I wanna" factor (I think the romance and beauty of a well crafted tomahawk lures many to purchase the big $$$ items)
4. Throwing (if the hawk is balanced in such a way, I guess)
5. Nostalgia and "mystical qualities" of a tomahawk

As to these last two points, here's a short article I ran across:

"All chiefs have hatchet men. The tomahawk may well have been the favorite war weapon of the American Indians, but it did not originate with them. It was the white settler who invented the metal hatchet and, like the rifle and the steel knife, sold it to the natives, not caring or realizing that it would be used eventually against him. The item was accepted enthusiastically, and spread rapidly to tribes even in remote areas not yet known to the whites. The Indians were not a metalworking people, hence every single piece was traded rather than manufactured.

But what came to be known as the tomahawk was not the same weapon that the Indians invented the word for. ‘Tomahawk’ derives from the language of the Algonquians of Virginia and originally meant the stone or wooden war club, which was the only indigenous weapon extensively used by the American Indians. When John Smith introduced the word to the English vocabulary, spelling it tomahak, he defined it as simply meaning ‘ax’, although he later remarked that the term was also applied to the native war club. Only with the passing of the years did ‘tomahawk’ come to be used exclusively for the metal war hatchet that has become so familiar to readers of western novels and viewers of western movies.

It was an Old West belief, fostered in modern times by the popular TV series starring Fess Parker as Daniel Boone and Ed Ames as his Indian sidekick, that the tomahawk was aerodynamically balanced for throwing. The fact is, the tomahawk was rarely thrown in combat, and for an obvious reason: a weapon thrown is likely to be a weapon lost. Worse, it could be picked up in case of a miss and used against the thrower. Neither did serious fighters throw their knives the way it has been commonly shown in war and cowboy movies."

I guess, to me, if I were a person in the 1800s needing a tool which could be used as either a weapon or a tool, I'd want the best materials, and typically in the modern day, the best tools for real work and very-unlikely-but-possible conflict are to be found where manual workers shop (i.e. hardware stores).


As to the lethal force stuff, I realize lethal force is lethal force, but carrying a "Stanley" Hatchet in your truck vs. the "Vietnam Bloodletter" in your truck is going to have an impact on a jury if one ever has to defend oneself either civilly or criminally in court. After all, who, but some sort of mall-ninja or serial slasher, is going to carry around a Vietnam combat-era spiked tomahawk on any sort of regular basis unless he/she is looking to kill someone or get into trouble??? This will be the defense attorney's argument I am sure. And if you are not toting it around on a daily basis for defense or work, then why spend big $$$ on it??

Just a couple of thoughts.

Also an opportunity to share an interesting article.

Thanks for the great responses.

Vanguard.45
 
the reason I bought mine (CS Trailhawk) was to complete a Nessmuk Trio (survival nuts and my fellow Hoodlums will know what that is). Fiskars has a neat hatchet with a 1095 carbon steel head. Other than that one I don't care much for a hatchet at all. I don't intend on learning any fighting techniques with it, didn't intend on learning any with a knife (but that damned Correctional Center I worked for made me do it). They're all tools to me. Self defense is an afterthought. Besides, a good lawyer would eat you alive in court if he asked you the wrong question the right way. So I don't buy ANYTHING for self defense. It's usually for camping or hunting, hell, maybe just to decorate the walls of my house. I happen to like the Native American and Cowboy motiff I have going on in my humble hootch.
 
I have and like both Estwing hammers and hatchets, as well as some Cold Steel tomahawks. :thumbup:
 
brother vanguard - good questions IMHO.

this is just my opinion, after going into about the 200th making of a tomahawk - take it or leave it, for what it's worth...;

...

i guess reliability might have something to do with it, when comparing a store-bought tool to a full-featured tomahawk...;

i liked tomahawks like the Cold Steel Trail Hawk, because it was long and thin, and had a hammer poll - but the grains on the handle were always mis-aligned on the ones i got, and being a former marine - if it CAN break, it WILL is always the theme music in my grape, ya dig...?

so i tried other stuff.

Plumb Shingle Hammers looked pretty good, and they are, ...but a Green Beret buddy of mine asked to borrow it for a minute in Snoqualmie Wilderness when we were out, and brought it back, broken at the cheeks (i never loan anything i don't have a contingency plan for, if lost somehow, so it was no big deal - but that is evidence of the problem).


i got pretty excited when fiberglass-handled hammers and axes started getting common, but then i found out that they aren't wrapped like mine are (after breaking like five or six of them in long, but gentle use - that's not good) - they are usually made out of matte fiberglass, which is strong until it isn't ...har! - then you have complete failure - wrapped composites keep working, especially if they have a compound endoskeleton ...i don't know who does that besides me, but they are probably out there ...:)....

for defending yourself, absolutely - a claw hammer is okay - but the beauty of a poll'd hawk, properly made, is it will out-perform that ol' claw hammer every time - even the claw, ya just machine a nail slot in the bit - it's probably safer too, come to think of it....

....a good hawk, with a poll, a skinny head, and lighweight, stronger composite handle is going to blow that thing away in performance, especially when you are out using it for months - one of ours just got back from 100 days in professional hunting camps in Alaska, used and abused by professional guides in mountain goat hunts - try that with an Ace Hammer.

your gear is your life up there.

if your gear isn't your life, ...then you can appreciate the better handling of a narrow-headed poll hawk (like the Cold Steel Trail Hawk head, for example) over a a typical hammer in woodwork applications.

a lot of folks don't realize that that last point is so, which is why we have a Happiness Guarantee for our hawks, which lets folks try it and decide for themselves, or their money back - forever.

does Craftsman do that...? i bet they do - but they need to wrap their composite handles, i think...:)....


Estwings are the way to go if you are going to go cheap IMHO - but they will not handle as well as a thin poll'd hawk for sure, and they will weigh you down in the Long and Lonesome, sez i.

Estwings also need to be wrapped with paracord or something if ya wanna choke up on the handle, with those solid,sharp necks they have - and you can forget about using them in the cold unless ya do that - rough carpenters in snow here will relate ...(wink!)....

not true with a low-mass hollow composite hawk handle.

ya get what you pay for, is my feeling.

i know, cuz i've bought everything ...hehehehe...!


i build hawks for myself, and sometimes other people get them (they are my babies though!! hehehe!) - and when i hand them to some brother, he ain't gonna come back with a broken one like my beanie-buddy did with that nice Plumb Shingling Hatchet - and if he does, we put a Lifetime Guarantee and a Happiness Guarantee on them all for the Unexpected...;

Stanley and them have some nice Guarantees on them too - but they don't make their composite handles correctly in my opinion - and they are definitely not optimum.

i make a lot of hawks in plain Coyote Brown, and other colors, to avoid the Tactical Ninja observation partly, which has been alluded to here.

but a long poll'd tomahawk with a thin head and overstrike protection (like our Strike Plate, or using a bit of metal or PVC added to your tool to do almost as well), ...especially in a strong more-ergonomic lightweight composite handle, puts that CG way out on the end where it should be, while the low mass allows good recovery - ya couldn't do that with a solid composite handle - too massive.

you will never see a composite handle done right and inexpensively, in my opinion, until some one invests millions in the tooling to use a wrapping method, similar to how they make continuos-strand carbon-fiber cruise missile tobes.

strong, correctly-shaped-for-the-hand, and light is worth the price.

that's my ranting opinion on that, fellow-babies ...:)....


if you haven't already, i encourage ya to get the Trail Hawk by Cold Steel, for less than twenty bucks, as some have also mentioned.


YMMV.

vec
 
SpookyPistolero said:
Unfortunately, a jury of your peers may not agree. An example is having used 'the ol' double barrel 12 gauge' to defend your home versus an AR with some trimmings ('evil black assault rifle'). Not that I necessarily agree with the all the conclusions of the original post, just a thought.
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Trust me. I do this for a living. A good shoot is a good shoot whether you use a pea shooter or the super deathdealer 3000 that has a bayonet hanging off the front.

If you don't believe me then do a search for a case where the type of the gun made the difference between a guilty verdict and an acquittal.

I'll give you a hint, there isn't one.
 
To Stage 2:

By "I do this for a living", I hope you don't mean you shoot people for a living and then go to trial. Just kidding!

I think the thing I and others were alluding to was not the actual USING of the tool to defend one's life, but rather, the perception of a jury during a civil trial following the tragic event where the defense attorney asks you if you think it is normal for someone to keep a "Bloody Deathdealer Tomahawk" close by wherever they might go, and why such a tool is so named???

It's just that the average Stanley is much more readily explainable, whereas some hawks are touted as being able to penetrate kevlar helmets and the like. A defense attorney would look up a video of one of these tactical hawks and show it to a jury and explain how it was this ability to penetrate and crush skulls which motivated you to purchase it in the first place. That's a bit of a problem in a civil suit. The defense attorney will ask you if you had seen the video, which was probably on the website where you ordered the hawk, and then ask why you chose to hit the poor deceased so hard knowing that a much lighter blow would have probably stopped the threat. That's how defense attorneys work, and while you might think you could explain it away to a jury, you might find it a bit riskier than trying to explain why you picked up your trusty old camp hatchet which had been purchased at Wal-Mart and kept in the truck for camping trips. Why add to the risk of liability??? Lethal force is lethal force, but we can't tote around just anything (i.e. daggers, grenades, tomahawks, etc.) just in case we run into problems. However, we are allowed to have hammers and hatchets and other TOOLS in our vehicles because people see them as "less threatening" for whatever reason.

I always thought it was odd we could carry pens and pencils onto airplanes, but not pocket knives!! Seems like I could do a bit of damage with such things if I were of that ilk (which I am not).

To Vector 001:

Great response, and your knowledge far exceeds my own. Approximately how much would one of those fancy hawks run the average neophyte??

Thanks to all!

Vanguard.45
 
STAGE 2 said:
Trust me. I do this for a living. A good shoot is a good shoot whether you use a pea shooter or the super deathdealer 3000 that has a bayonet hanging off the front.

If you don't believe me then do a search for a case where the type of the gun made the difference between a guilty verdict and an acquittal.

I'll give you a hint, there isn't one.
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I'd rather not be a test case. Either way, I'm not suggesting it's the defining factor. But unfortunately we don't always see eye to eye with our peers.
 
Vanguard.45 said:
To Stage 2:

To Vector 001:

Great response, and your knowledge far exceeds my own. Approximately how much would one of those fancy hawks run the average neophyte??

Thanks to all!

Vanguard.45
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i don't know about my knowledge exceeding any buddy's, brother vanguard!

my mistakes have probably exceeded 'em though! ...har...!

maybe the brethren here can learn from them.

hehehehe...!


i don't want to spam the board, ...this subject was just dear to my heart (i am a hawk fanatic, a worthy tool in my opinion) but if you want a price, please check out my information site, listed in my signature, and we will hook ya up.

make sure and mention your LEO or military background, as we want to give you a discount in a pathetic attempt to show our appreciation of your service, sir.

that goes for everyone in any kind of public service.

vec
...............
 
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