Why did murray carter sharpen like this?

[DavidL41]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJdtCLIGQm8&spfreload=10

He starts from 1k to 6k which looks normal then goes back to 1k and 6k again. Was this deliberate? Whats the reasoning?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTV4ph1LE3c&spfreload=10

This time he uses the 1k for 90 percent of the work and 10 seconds of stropping per side on the 6k. Why the difference in technique and does both techniques = similar sharpness? I would think that it would be better to spend more time on the 6k stone for shaving or does stropping motions on the 6k = same sharpness as sharpening for longer (once the apex is sharpened its as sharp as its going to get for that stone type thing?)

 

[Rey HRH]

I'm thinking the first one, he's thinning the grind and goes through the 1k then the 6k. After he's thinned the grind, he puts in the primary bevel and goes through the 1 k and 6k for that.

In the second one, the grind is already thinned out and he's just working on the bevel.

 

[Mike157]

I don't have time to watch the videos right now, so I may be completely off base.... I'm guessing what you're seeing is Murray bringing down and finishing what I believe he calls the secondary bevel - pretty much to a zero edge. His next step would be form the primary or cutting edge bevel at a slightly larger angle - starting with the more coarse stone and finishing with the finer stone. If I remember, Murray calls the cutting edge the primary bevel and the secondary bevel the larger main grind. Mike

 

[draperfish]

This is correct. Murray first thins the secondary edge and polishes it, then establishes the primary edge and finishes it on the 6K stone. I've got both his sharpening videos and that's the process he uses.

I'm thinking the first one, he's thinning the grind and goes through the 1k then the 6k. After he's thinned the grind, he puts in the primary bevel and goes through the 1 k and 6k for that.

In the second one, the grind is already thinned out and he's just working on the bevel.

 

[chiral.grolim]

If I remember, Murray calls the cutting edge the primary bevel and the secondary bevel the larger main grind.

And hopefully everyone knows that is incorrect or at least abnormal terminology The "main" grind is the "primary" grind, usually cut/formed first and what determines the over all geometry of the blade - in every sense it is "primary". The edge-bevel is always "secondary", something you can add or not, and you can change the angle and finish (grit) with relative ease.

In the first video, Murray is first thinning out the primary bevel which, out of ignorance, he calls the "secondary edge". It's a silly mistake since the primary bevels on each side of those knives don't actually meet to form any sort of "edge" at all. *shrug*
Anyway, he thins out the primary grind first with 1K followed by 6K, then he goes back and sharpens the edge (secondary bevel) on 1K followed by 6K.

In the second video he is sharpening a straight-razor with a hollow primary grind that requires no thinning, he is only resharpening the edge (secondary bevel), resetting it with the 1k which is much quicker than resetting it with the 6k. He only switches to the 6k when the apex is well formed / sharp, polishing the finish.

His actions are reasonable, but his terminology is wonky

 

[draperfish]

His terminology is wonky, but man can he put a scary sharp edge on a blade!

And hopefully everyone knows that is incorrect or at least abnormal terminology The "main" grind is the "primary" grind, usually cut/formed first and what determines the over all geometry of the blade - in every sense it is "primary". The edge-bevel is always "secondary", something you can add or not, and you can change the angle and finish (grit) with relative ease.

In the first video, Murray is first thinning out the primary bevel which, out of ignorance, he calls the "secondary edge". It's a silly mistake since the primary bevels on each side of those knives don't actually meet to form any sort of "edge" at all. *shrug*
Anyway, he thins out the primary grind first with 1K followed by 6K, then he goes back and sharpens the edge (secondary bevel) on 1K followed by 6K.

In the second video he is sharpening a straight-razor with a hollow primary grind that requires no thinning, he is only resharpening the edge (secondary bevel), resetting it with the 1k which is much quicker than resetting it with the 6k. He only switches to the 6k when the apex is well formed / sharp, polishing the finish.

His actions are reasonable, but his terminology is wonky

 

[DavidL41]

Thanks for the help.

 

[samuraistuart]

The Japanese reverse what we call the primary bevel. Their primary is the cutting edge, while our primary is the bevel created when shaping the blade itself. Same with secondary. The Japanese secondary bevel is the main grind, while our secondary bevel is the cutting edge. Useful to know when dealing with Eastern knifes and knife makers!

 

[Rey HRH]

The Japanese reverse what we call the primary bevel. Their primary is the cutting edge, while our primary is the bevel created when shaping the blade itself. Same with secondary. The Japanese secondary bevel is the main grind, while our secondary bevel is the cutting edge. Useful to know when dealing with Eastern knifes and knife makers!

Interesting fact. Thank you for the education.

 

[sodak]

And hopefully everyone knows that is incorrect or at least abnormal terminology The "main" grind is the "primary" grind, usually cut/formed first and what determines the over all geometry of the blade - in every sense it is "primary". The edge-bevel is always "secondary", something you can add or not, and you can change the angle and finish (grit) with relative ease.

In the first video, Murray is first thinning out the primary bevel which, out of ignorance, he calls the "secondary edge". It's a silly mistake since the primary bevels on each side of those knives don't actually meet to form any sort of "edge" at all. *shrug*
Anyway, he thins out the primary grind first with 1K followed by 6K, then he goes back and sharpens the edge (secondary bevel) on 1K followed by 6K.

In the second video he is sharpening a straight-razor with a hollow primary grind that requires no thinning, he is only resharpening the edge (secondary bevel), resetting it with the 1k which is much quicker than resetting it with the 6k. He only switches to the 6k when the apex is well formed / sharp, polishing the finish.

His actions are reasonable, but his terminology is wonky

Juranich uses the same terminology as Carter. I don't mind, as long as we can understand the definitions beforehand...

 

[chiral.grolim]

The Japanese reverse what we call the primary bevel. Their primary is the cutting edge, while our primary is the bevel created when shaping the blade itself. Same with secondary. The Japanese secondary bevel is the main grind, while our secondary bevel is the cutting edge. Useful to know when dealing with Eastern knifes and knife makers!

The Japanese word for "blade bevel" is Kiriba, isnt it? "Cutting path"? Or is it keisha? Their word for "edge" is Ha, isn't it? And the primary bevel is Hira? It sounds like someone has perpetuated a mis-translation.... please correct me if I am wrong.

 

[Mike157]

The Japanese word for "blade bevel" is Kiriba, isnt it? "Cutting path"? Or is it keisha? Their word for "edge" is Ha, isn't it? And the primary bevel is Hira? It sounds like someone has perpetuated a mis-translation.... please correct me if I am wrong.

I would be interested in this also.

I'm not trying to be pissy here and apologize in advance if anyone takes this the wrong way....but Murray spent something like 17 or 18 years in Japan learning his craft. He returns yearly for visits and does speak Japanese. I'm inclined to accept that the east and west have two different, and legitimate, views. Mike

 

[samuraistuart]

I don't know Japanese. But that is the blade terminology in the East vs West system. Primary to us is the bevel. Primary to them is the cutting edge.

 

[skyhorse]

I don't know Japanese. But that is the blade terminology in the East vs West system. Primary to us is the bevel. Primary to them is the cutting edge.

That's good to know,thanks.

 

[chiral.grolim]

I don't know Japanese. But that is the blade terminology in the East vs West system. Primary to us is the bevel. Primary to them is the cutting edge.

I remain skeptical. "Primary" is an English word, not Japanese, and it is an adjective used to describe one object in relation to another. If they use "primary edge", where is the "secondary edge" as the word in English demands such. Carter describes the primary bevel as an "edge" which is just plain wrong and obviously so. An "edge" (again, English) is formed by the meeting of two planes, whereas a "bevel" is a slope. We call it a "grind" because that is how it is most commonly formed, by grinding. So they are mis-using the term "edge" and also mis-using the term "primary" as there isn't a "secondary" of any relevance to what they are describing, it's just bad English and should be abandoned.

If we're going to use Eastern terminology, why not use the words from the language of reference, i.e. Japanese. We don't call their noble warriors "knights" we call them "samurai", they wield a "katana" and "wakizashi" not "short-sword" or "long-sword". The Japanese have their own words for these things. Why abuse their language as well as our own instead of simply using the correct words from each, depending on which language you are using? It's like describing sake as vodka or beer or wine when it is none of the above! The use of Western words in "Eastern terminology" is an incorrect application.

Here is a wikipedia article on some of the terms: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glossary_of_Japanese_swords

Ha or hasaki is the "cutting edge" as opposed to mune which is the "spine", the only two "edges" mentioned but the spine is not an "edge" so the word shouldn't be used to describe it, just use "spine" or "mune" rather than inserting words where they don't belong. In English we'd call the sloped portion of the blade leading from spine to edge a "bevel" - I am not sure of the Eastern term but am quite certain that it should not be translated as "edge".

 

[samuraistuart]

Chiral, I don't really get what you mean by "skeptical". That's the facts. That is the terminology they use vs we use. I don't know Japanese, I don't know the etymology of Japanese words. That's just how it is, my friend. As far as I know, this is a whole EAST vs WEST difference in describing different parts of the blade. It's not my opinion of the matter, it's how it is. Go over to Japan/China/Vietnam and my guess is if you ask any of the knife makers over there what is what, they will tell you that the primary edge is the cutting edge. Not my system.....just how it is.

 

[chiral.grolim]

Go over to Japan/China/Vietnam and my guess is if you ask any of the knife makers over there what is what, they will tell you that the primary edge is the cutting edge. Not my system.....just how it is.

Wouldn't they respond in their own language? And if they used my language (English) incorrectly (as Carter does), it would behoove me to correct them. That is what I mean by "skeptical" - I don't rely on the English-terminology of a non-English speaker as they frequently use the wrong English words. I correct foreign surgeons all the time, or rather I give them the correct English word when, struggling with their limited English vocabulary, they use one that doesn't make sense. Carter calls the primary bevel a "secondary edge", that is wrong because a bevel is, by definition, not an edge. The Japanese call the edge "Ha" in native tongue, they don't call it "primary" anything, that is a word supplied by a translator that doesn't belong there unless their is another "edge" which can be called "Secondary". That is my point. I am not saying that Eastern makers don't know what they are talking about, only that they are using the wrong English words. This is not a matter of two equally correct ways to describe a thing. "Edge" and "bevel" are in no way similar, just as "spine" and "edge" are not similar. We should not perpetuate such absurdities and nonsense regardless of the prestige of those who do, it only sews further confusion.

 

[samuraistuart]

I you want to go over there and correct the Easterners on how they use their language...by all means go for it. I want a video of it when you do.

 

[chiral.grolim]

I you want to go over there and correct the Easterners on how they use their language...by all means go for it. I want a video of it when you do.

Not their language, from what I've been able to find online they tend to use Japanese and, i assume, correctly. I definitely don't speak Japanese
I've only come across Carter using our language incorrectly as if he learned knife-anatomy in our language from non-English speakers

Here's a good diagram using the language of each appropriately: http://www.japanesechef.com.au/japaneseinfo.html