why do people disagree with the word "kali"

T

thekuntawman

Joined
Nov 28, 1999
Messages
235
just like it is an insult to come to a person and tell him things about his family, and you dont know about him or his family, it is an insult to make things up about a culture you dont know, even if you are part of that culture.

like me i came to the US in 1981, so somethings i dont know that well about the philippines and some thngs i dont know that well about the US (like old TV shows we didnt have a TV for a long time and i still dont watch it). but how can i argue about "good times" or MASH, i wasnt even here when the show was on TV?

but some experts so called want to say things about what filipino teachers are like back home, or the culture, or the styles of the art, and they never been there or they dont know. thats where i come in, not to complain, but to correct. you mean to tell me, all this time there isnt even people around who told some these "expert" there is no pananantukan or kinomutai in the philippines (and KALI?)? of course someone did, but the same people instead of saying "i was wrong", they continue telling stories, and making them bigger with more detail. to a native born filipino, this is an insult.

here is some of the things people told me:
-why should (a famous expert) go to the philippines? all the best masters are here in the US or Europe?
-how is it that the all the other "authentic" FMA have hubad lubad and you dont? (they DONT!)
-do you teach the 21 classifications of the FMA weapons? (i have only 10, so i must be a phony)
-SPAR? i dont want sport, FMA is for streetfighting/combat only! (how do you think they test the student? in a real DEATH MATCH?)
-if the arnis empty hand doesnt come from the knife, it isnt arnis empty hand
-you DONT teach double stick? i thought it was a phase of FMA training?

if you meet some "FMA" expert that are FOB (fresh off the boat, as my little brother says), you will see that everything you think about the AUTHENTIC philippine martial arts teacher, well lets say the FOB inlcuding me must be uneducated when it comes to the FMA and we are phonies.

KALI is not the art of the "moro". everythig does not "translate" to each other. we all do not use drill to learn how to fight. and yes, we do "sport" to see what your made out of. talk to any guy with an accent and you will see hes telling you the same thing.
 
also, i have to admit that i use it to, KALI, because people recognize it, and many time when they are looking for a mindanao style, they will look up "kali".

but i never tell people it is, i just use it to advertise.
 
I think i understand what you mean now about Kali.

However, I don't think anybody intends to insult, and feeling insulted is a very extreme reaction.

"Eskrima" is a widely accepted term. But, when it comes to talking to fobs who don't play with sticks, I always use the term "arnis" because I already anticipate that they will have no idea about Kali.

But remember, these are pinoys who are non fma practicioners. Chances are if I talk to a Philippine born eskrimador, they will know what Kali means.
 
Guro Inosanto once told me that when you use the term Kali, it must be in conjunction with specific family lineage names.

It seems that everybody and everything is offending the kuntawman...

If you disagree with the stuff here dont attack, just let it be...

Bill
 
first, most philippine born eksrimador do not know about kali, unless they read foreign magazines. that word is not familiar at all. i know that some older books mentioned it, but it is not a word that is familiar at home. the popular words are eskrima and arnis.

and no, not everything offends me. but i believe in speaking what you know, and not to talk about what you "think" as a fact. which is very common to "FMA" expert. and kali does not offend me unless someone knows he is teaching arnis, but then he tells his student it is the "ancient form of kali", which is a lie if you know that you just changed the name. when i hear people say it today, i know that they are repeating what they are told about that. it is the ones who spread the incorrect informations that are wrong.

and this
"Guro Inosanto once told me that when you use the term Kali, it must be in conjunction with specific family lineage names.
i dont know about that. if the word is not existing with styles (except for new name change like pekiti tirsia arnis to pekiti tirsia kali) you will not find "kali" styles in the philippines. the only people who swear that you will are people who never been there.
 
kuntawman,

I think you're being overly sensitive about this issue.

I have a little book called "Filipino Martial Arts"
This book's author is Ned Anima.
It is a Philippine publication, and it includes an entire section
on "Kali".

This book also includes sections on Gabbo, torsi, arnis, sikaran, the list goes on and on.

Your argument about "Kali" isn't good enough. Again, Antonio Ilustrisimo's style was called "Kali Ilustrisimo". He was born in Visaya, and died in Manila.

This is substantial evidence that "Kali" is an indigineous term to the Islands. Maybe this term is new, but the fact remains that the art was named in The Philippines.

And unless you can provide a good argument that disproves this fact, then everything you are arguing makes no sense.

As far as the word "Eskrima".... Eskrima comes from the French word for sword. "Esgrime" This is not an indigineous word. We basically bastardized and adopted this word. It is a Eurpoean term, as well as Arnis.
 
if you look back in time you will see that illustrisimo called his art "arnis" before the 1990s.

if you dont believe me about the usage of "kali" ask a philippine immigrant eskrimador about who is using it, and they will tell you the same thing. some groups like LSA (lightning scientific arnis) changed to lightning scientific kali eskrima arnis (or something like that).

and of course i am sensitive about the word. yes eskrima and arnis came from the spanish language, so did the word "Philippines", but we are a spanish colony, there is no shame in that. arnis and eskrima the words replaced whatever people use before then, and if people want to go back to using kali, that's fine. but i lived in the philippines and traveled all over the place. i never saw a "kali" school, and i am not going to argue with some guys who never even been there and want to tell me what we call our arts.

and yes there are filipinos who are using kali now, but i am somebody who was around in the 1970s and 80s when they use to be arnis and eskrima. but the name did not carry from ancient times to now. i know about some people who want to abandon the use of spanish words, so they choose kali. whatever.
 
kuntawmanong,

we know you are not talking trash. But, getting insulted because people call it kali is just weird.

Yes. Ilustrisimo called it arnis. In fact, it was called "Olistrisimo Eskrima" before being called Kali.
 
Hey Maurice,

Ruffling feathers again? There has to be a reason(s) other than marketing why "kali" is used within the FMA community. If you recall, it was said to distinguish it's origin, region and dialect. Some say it was to diffirentiate blade to blunted systems. I am not certain why Tatang changed from Eskrima Olistrisimo to Kalis Ilustrisimo but then again I do not care. I agree partly with what you've written but I believe terminology is a rather mute point. Although I find your posts often educational and at times amusing. The bottomline is the authenticity of the particular art or system.

Let's keep to more interesting topics like "Regulating Instructorship" and some of the many misconceptions found today in the FMA. Let's refer to your original post. Good stuff!

Yours in the Arts,

John
BAKBAKAN International
 
When you go out of your way to discredit (in your case EVERYBODY)It just makes you look bad and insecure.

I take advice from respected elders....

Bill
 
okay i understand what you guys are saying. but understand me, i am not saying i disagree with the use of the word kali, i use it to. but when you say "i do the original, ancient art of kali, and those guys just do arnis/eskrima" that is not a good way to do business. of course there was an art of kali many years before. but the word has changed, and so did the art. my disagreement is with how many people are using and trying to fool the new beginner. if that did not happen, you would not have young people trying to say, "kali, blade, arnis, stick, kali, pure, eskrima, with spanish influence, etc"

anyway, kali the word is not in dialect, so we cant say that. but i understand why people dont want to use spanish words arnis de mano and eskrima. some people will call there blade style, kali. i understand that to. but as far as this renamed art, being ancient or mother to the other styles, or being muslim, or being different or better than the other arts other than the name, now that is a problem. we have enough of made up information in the FMA, and we dont need more which added to confusion for new beginners and non-FMA people.

and no, i dont care to try and discredit other people, and nothing i say is untrue or a lie. but if people dont want me to make corrections, then fine i will let you think what you want. but for every person i ever met, even some of my own students, who went to the PI and spent money and time to find "authentic Kali/DUMUG/Panananjakman etc" they all come back empty handed and disappointed. everybody who leaves the US will find out sooner or late.
 
i think the writer of this information name is michael del rosario, i'll check. it came from a philippine based forum.




The Universality of fma is kind of complicated. You see, The Rice
Terraces in Baguio, Northern Luzon, existed since 100bc without
mentioning the other native protomalays who were there before that
time. Each tribe has its own tribal style and favorite weapons, each
speaking in their own native dialect (some of whom are already
extinct). When the next batch of indonesians and malaysians came in
slow migration, they became the new natives. Nevertheless, the very
first government of The Philippines who declared War against the
Madjapahit Sultan of Borneo (1300s)was the remnants of the Sri Visayan
Empire
who migrated in mas-colonial settlement althroughout the middle and
the northern Philippines(Ang Siniri Bisaya)headed by Datu Puti and
his 10 (our legend speaks of 13) tribal clans. The southern
Philipphines (the magindanao, basilan, sulu and jolo) were already a
part of
the Madjapahit Muslim Sultan of Borneo. Since the Madjapahit
replaced the Sri Visaya in Indo-Malay world their martial arts were
basically similar countering each others style utilyzing the ancient
martial art principles established by the ancient Sri Visaya (625ad)
and Caelandran Kings, etc. And so around 1300s, the Siniri Bisaya of
Datu Puti ruled the shores (pampang) and riversides(tinagailogan) of
the middle and the northern Philippines with a very effective,
scientific and practical martial art of the aristocrats (warrior
castes).

Sometime in 1500s the spaniards came, divided the Visayans(Siniri
Bisaya) and the natives, made them fight each other, defeated them
and the rest is history.

And so in conclussion Filipino Martial Arts today have the Tribal
Martial Arts which are very conservative taught only to their tribal
members after certain initial ceremony, we have the conservative
Ancient (middle and northern SriVisayan style)Kalis Kalis Ng Siniri
Bisaya and The Tinagalogan (wrongly called "Kali" and wrongly refered
only to the southern Philippines) styles, we have the spanish
influenced usually refered to "Arnes" though its origin is the
Tinagalogan(northern) "Singkaw" and had nothing to do with the
spanish influence, also evolved was "eskrima" though its origin is
the binisaya(Sinugbu/Cebu, etc.)"Pangamot" and had nothing to do with
the spanish influence, and then we have what we have, the highly
american (and spanish) influenced competitive modern FMA which
assimilates anything and everything Arnis/Eskrima/Kali.
 
the name game is funny and sad.

but unfortunately in America name recogition sells. I teach T'ai Chi chuan and Qi gong. when I make a flyer I have to put T'ai chi if I put Qi gong nobody shows.

you have to find a balance between the truth and what people understand to be the truth.

The Tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.
The Tao that can be named is not the eternal name.

Lao Tze

below a poem by me:


Before words


Who invented sandals?
Who invented soap?
Who invented the shovel?


Written history is so short and we have attributed so many creations to one culture or another.

The un-written history of mankind is unfathomly longer than we will ever know.

There were wise sages long before Buddha or Christ…..

Remember the ancient sages before the were words.



just thought I'd jump in sorry if I offended anyone.
 
I could be totally wrong but I have heard the theory that the word Kali is more derived from the language of the Indonesian Datu's that came to the Phillipine's long before the Spanish. The Phillipine's may be Spanish colony but you are not Spanish people. You've existed long before the Spanish arrived and therefore had a language and commerce with the surrounding areas for centuries previous. Kali, just from the sound of it is more of an "Indo" sounding word as well. At some point the Indo/Malay cheiftans also shared knowledge and or warred with the Native Filipino's. Some of that knowledge would be Silat as has been suggested by certain historians mainly martial historians. So it could very possibly be that Kali is a word that pre dates the words escrima or arnis seeing that these two words are very obviously affected by the Spanish post their invasion. Basically the Spanish that is mixed with the native language is not the true language of Filipinos. For that matter the label Filipino isn't the true description of the native people of those islands. It's some what of a hybrid you could say, no ? Or the result of the Spanish and their occupation or your homeland. Or am I totally wrong ?, no offense intended;)
Oh wait....now that I read all the above posts more thoroughly....the theory has been put forth her already but in other words. With maybe a slightly different slant... wait, let me read it all again...
 
I have to agree with thekuntawman. Since taking an interest in the FMA in the past few week (still researching what style I'd like to study). I've asked friends and relatives about terms I have come across and they're meanings. Much to my surprise, they have never heard of terms like Dumog/Dumug and Pananjakman in reference to Filipino Martials Arts. In fact to them, it sounds a bit humorous. I've even asked uncles who were into Escrima/Martial Arts/Street fighting and they just laugh at the terms I give them. Might be possible that they are just unknowledgable about such things since they lived in Manila. Have any of you experienced the same when researching the terms and their translations?

Lcf2727
 
I understand what Kuntawman is saying...makes sense. After all that has been said in this thread & a couple talks with my dad, it is clear to say that the Philippines is an amazing place that is different in many places. What I'm saying is (as I found out from my dad, who came over to the States in the mid-60s) that it is an amazing place b/c you could be 25 miles from another place/town/province & speak a totally different dialect/language. My Lola (Grandma) who is Illocano (from Luna) & would go to Manila (about 225 miles away) & not be able to speak Tagalog...she spoke better English than Tagalog...my point is that the Philippines is so diverse & has so many dialects that differences in words & terms & meanings are bound to happen. Imagine not being able to talk to another citizen in the U.S. who was only 225 mile away (not including being near Canada or Mexico) because they spoke a diffenent language. I can talk to someone 1000 miles away here in the states & not have a problem. I understand what point you're making, Kuntawman.

Paalam
 
Speaking with certain family members and friends from the Philipines, many don't even know what any of the above mentioned words are or their significance (Arnis, Escrima, Kali). I've talked to many, and there are alot who know nothing of any of those words and their relation to martial arts. Some had no idea that they had a martial art. They knew, Karate schools back home but that was about it. As metioned above it's probably more of a dialectical thing as well as the circles of influence or groups of people you socialize with. As well, I have had similar conversation with people from China and Taiwan. They knew just a little about some internal styles as excercise only (Qi Gong, Tai Chi)performed in parks and recreational areas oten by mostlt older people. Kung Fu styles were non existent in their spheres of influence so they thought they either were a thing of the past or something that movies made up and or capitalize on. Lion dancing and festival gymnastics were all they were equated with. Kali could very well be a legitimate word it also may not be. It doesn't seem to matter much as most if not all the respected MA and FMA community here and abroad recognize it and some even find legitimacy in it's usage as a description of the art. In other words..."it's all good" . If you've experienced difficulty using the word Kali with people from back home as they don't recognize it, then use the word they understand and recognize. Speak their language, it's the point of communication. If you haven't exprienced ad ythin uncomfortable from using the word, then no harm, no foul. Basically, all three words are associated only, with FMA and therefore are useful. If you say Kali, no one thinks Karate or Kung Fu. This sounds strangley like the debate between Wu Shu and Kung Fu too. Sometimes if in passing conversation with "FOB" from China and MA somehow come up, when you say Kung Fu they look at you strangley and will even question the terminology, then you clarify with Wu Shu, then they recognize what you mean or rather if you mention the name of the specific style then they know it as what it is and not by Kung Fu which is merely a label or description of the attributes involved in the development of the Chinese martial arts and not a true description of the art itself. Wu Shu ends up being a more blanket description of the entire of these arts. So they recognize the martial art connection made. Anyone can have Kung Fu developed through whatever activity they do, biking, cooking, fighting, running, driving, mathematics, machining ? whatever, but not everyone has Wu Shu, or Tai Chi, or Hsing I, or Wing Chun, or Hung Gar, etc. Of course I could certainly be very wrong. :D
 
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