Why does Randall drag its feet on switching to better stainless steels?

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Mar 9, 2000
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I guess the question pretty much says it all. I have a model 14, circa 1984, made with 440B stainless. I read somewhere here that now they use 440C and are contemplating a switch to ATS34. What gives? Why, after all these years, are they still messing around with 440 series steel? Why aren't they contemplating a switch to, say, S30V, BG42, or VG10? Also, is their heat treating up to the level of Paul Bos? If not (and I suspect not) why don't they employ his services?

Don't get me wrong. I like Randalls. Their designs are outstanding, and I am looking to purchase a model 1. But if I do, I will likely go with their carbon steel, not their stainless. And even then, I wish they were using 52100 or A2, not 01.
 
IMHO, the question of the "better" steel is overdone. Randall has used 440b and O1 for a long time and seemingly very successfully. I have both and they seem to cut just fine - I happen to really like the O1 blades. The Randall guys seem to think these work best for them. I've never heard of Randall's knives being badly heat treated. Maybe they're not done in Bos fashion - most makers knives aren't.
 
Yea, I sure wish they'd get up with the times. When I bought my #14 18 years ago, Randall was considered THE best. Now, it seems like they are taking a back seat to companies like Busse and Strider, as well as the plethora of custom makers like Hossom, Simonich, Rinaldi, etc. All these guys are using the newer "super-steels" with great results, and the product they are selling is sometimes less expensive than the Randalls. I think it would be awesome to see some of the Randalls coming out in S30V. Maybe I'm one of the so-called steel snobs; but if you have the new-improved product at your disposal, why not use it?
 
Randall knives are very good as they are. Why change something that is clearly not broken?

Randall customers have developed a clear expectation of what they want and look for in these knives and as long as they continue to support the product we should not change it. The change would not necessarily be for the better.

Every alloyed of steel represents a compromise. I would not want to buy a model 14 and discover that it is rusting, or chipping, under conditions that were safe for my previous model 14. These knives are as comfortable as a broken in pair of boots. If you want to mess around with the formula then you are probably missing the point of their attraction entirely.

It the same kind of problem that Coke had with their Classic Coke formula. Just imagine how it would feel if I ran into your favorite restaurant and changed the menu. It might be for the "better"; but I would still end up with fewer customers.

n2s
 
Given their 3 year waiting list, I can't imagine that increasing the cost of their base material is of any interest to Randall.

It certainly is not a factor in their sales, or their waiting list would be growing shorter, not longer.

When I ordered an Astro from them over a year ago, I recall the person that I ordered from griping about what a pain in the ass making the Astro was because of "all the hand filing".

I know next to nothing about knifemaking, but I do recall some threads on this forum about burning up miles of belts grinding S30V an the like.

Clearly, if you are hand filing, battering away at S30V in a complex pattern is going to drive the cost up much further.
 
Of "if it ain't broken, don't fix it".....seems applicable here....

Are there better steels...Yes

Are some folks getting orgasmic over the alphanumeric designations given to these new "designer" steels... Yes

But I ask you this......or as the Joker said in Batman..."riddle me this"...

What shopmade knife brings more IMMEDIATELY in the secondary market than when purchased from the maker? Busse? hmmmmmmmm, Strider? hmmmmmmmmm...are there some that do? Sure, let's begin with Moran, Herron, RAndall.......the list starts to get real short doesn't it?

Okay, before you guys "flame" me....I've got some of the ATS34's and other designer steels...and sure, I like 'em....there's a place even in my modest collection of 200 or 300 knives for a little of everything....but when it comes to putting fairly serious money on a knife, it will not be a Busse or Strider.....:footinmou
 
You guys continue to amaze me with your knife knowledge and well written answers. I will not talk about changing the Randall "Way", as you are doing a great job with that. I will ask permission from all of you, if it would be OK to print your replys in the RKS newsletter for those members that do not have computers? If you would rather I did not, please let me know. Best regards, Rhett Stidham email at rstidham@gate.net See you at the Guild Show in Orlando this weekend.
 
Personally, I would not want Randall to switch to any "super-steel."
Basically, they have used O-1 since the beginning and it would definately be an "end of an era" scenario. To me, Randall isn't just about performance, it's about history and tradition as well.
 
Why change the steel to better performance when almost all Randall knives are for collectors/traders/dealers?

Addition of Cryo in the heat treatment is costly.

The new steels will be a pain to shape on the old grinding wheels and would probably require machines with belts.

The heat treating ovens would require replacement with modern furnaces having computer controled temperature with atmosphere requirements.

The 440B is fine for psudo forging and collecting, the new steels would change metallurgy properties if forged in open atmosphere.

Very few fans ask the question "how does Randall steel perform compared to brand X?" The most common question is "how much is this knife worth?"

Regards,
FK
 
FK,

You must be a collector, trader, or dealer. Including myself, I know several hard core, meat hunters and outdoorsmen who use and beat the crap out of their Randalls. Personally, I know more users than collectors.

By the way, what do you mean by "psuedo forging and collecting"?
 
Part of the Randall mystique is the fact that they--inccluding the stainless models--are hand-forged. Not many stainless steels are forgeable, at least on a practical level.

Randall has a good thing going. Why change a formula that has spelled success for many years with no sign of tapering off.
 
I agree, Randall should ditch the heritage and reputation that they have built on for years. There are many companies that should do the same. Harley Davidson comes to mind. Why dont they ditch that V-twin and produce a modern water cooled 4 cyl. that rides smooth and doesnt vibrate. If you really think about it why would they change, the coke scenario was a good one. If its working why change for changes sake. If you were to poll Randall owners I think you will find they are very happy with the steel. Not too happy about the wait (I'll be an old man by the time my club knife shows up)but not many complaints on steel.
Gerald
 
A little off topic....but Harley does have a new motor, although it's not a 4cyl...it is water cooled and is REALLY quiet, it's called the V-Rod, but the price is still high dollar. Not even sure if they make it, I think most of it is Italian (Aprilla?)...not sure about that one. Anyway, I doubt that switching steel would be a good thing for Randall. There is to mush competition out there from other makers that use "wonder" steel. Like majority or users and collectors on this post..."why fix something that ain't broke?" If you want a classic Randall knife style with "better" steel, there are many custom makers that will make one for you. I personally like the carbon 01 tool steel, although it stains and whatever, it wouldn't be the same knife if it was made from "better" steel. I think the carbon steel is easy to take and edge and so far, I've had no worries.
 
OH NO! Who said that Randalls are just 'collectibles' nowadays!? When I hear the word 'collectible' I think of that 100-piece-high-tech-tactical-blowout-special crap on the Home Shopping Network! Gives me the shivers. I mean, sure I have pretty knives and expensive knives, but if the design and materials aren't purpose driven and functional then I'm not interested. Furthermore, if I can't take a knife out of my 'collection' and go beat the crap out of it in the field without it failing in some way, then that knife will leave my collection in a hurry. Now I know that I can use and abuse my Randalls in any variety of applications and they will perform admirably. The fact that they are also collectors items and carry a respectable aftermarket price-tag is just a bonus.
 
I still feel that Randall should upgrade to better steels, or at least offer the option to the consumer, even if it means raising the price. I think they are resting too much on their laurels.
 
Personally, I like carbon steel bladed knives. They are easy to sharpen, hold an edge, and with just a little care, they will last a life time. If Randall did away with the O-1 and opted for the newest wonder steel, then they would not appeal to me as much.

To be honest, I think it is better to invest in Randall made knives than the stock market at the moment. Big D1
 
My 2 cents: I think that people sometimes get hung up on blade steels. For 99% of us any good quality steel is going to preform just fine for what the knives are going to be used for and I doubt we would notice a diff between them if it wasnt stamped on the blade. With the exception of people who need knives for saltwater or diving etc. I think it has become a "keep up with the Jones's" thing. Just my 2 cents or less.
 
Personally, I think you ought to call up Gary T. himself, and then come back and post his response to your question....

I would imagine that said response would be very informative...

From the RMK website...

Randall Made Knives
4857 South Orange Blossom Trail
Orlando, Florida 32839
P.O. Box 1988 Orlando, Florida 32802
Phone: 407-855-8075
Fax: 407-855-9054
Email Us at grandall@randallknives.com

Looking foward to your/his response...

Mel
 
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