Why Falkniven VG-10 than 154 CM?

MEJ

MEJ

Joined
Jul 24, 2011
Messages
1,283
Something i do not understand about Falkniven knives is why they dont have a line of 154 CM stainless. Dont' get me wrong because i love the VG-10 on my F1 but 154 seems to have some superior qualities?
 
It could be due to the steel combination for laminated blades. Laminates with VG-10 in the middle are quite common, but I do not remember any example with 154 CM... ATC 34 is used - but for outside layers... There could be something with HT.
And Fallkniven does not play with steels so much anyway as I have noticed. :)
 
Fallkniven have their knives made in Japan--thus, one sees the use of Japanese steels in their knives. If I recall correctly, the major Japanese steel manufacturers seem to have some kind of moratorium on exporting some of their cutlery steels.

154cm is an American steel, of which ATS-34 is a copy.
 
Cynic2701 said:
Fallkniven have their knives made in Japan--thus, one sees the use of Japanese steels in their knives. If I recall correctly, the major Japanese steel manufacturers seem to have some kind of moratorium on exporting some of their cutlery steels.

154cm is an American steel, of which ATS-34 is a copy.
Click to expand...

Agree. When in Rome, you make like a Roman. The knives are made in Japan, so they have Japanese alloys, which 154CM ain't.

I've not seen a lot of recent Japanese knives with ATS-34 blades. Most of the Japanese knife makers use VG10 and the AUS series.

I've knives in both 154CM and VG10. I can't tell them apart based on the performance.
 
Personally, I would be disappointed if they switched from VG10 to 154CM. I've owned an A1 for 12 years (back when they were solid VG10 with a shallow hollow grind), and that knife made VG10 my favorite stainless steel. I own knives in 154CM and S30V, but I find VG10 to be tougher, toothier, easier to sharpen, and it holds an edge just as long. Even in my folders, I love my Spyderco Endura the most, even though I may have "nicer" knives.
 
knarfeng said:
Agree. When in Rome, you make like a Roman. The knives are made in Japan, so they have Japanese alloys, which 154CM ain't.

I've not seen a lot of recent Japanese knives with ATS-34 blades. Most of the Japanese knife makers use VG10 and the AUS series.

I've knives in both 154CM and VG10. I can't tell them apart based on the performance.
Click to expand...

Exactly.

And I can't tell the difference either, except that (and I don't know if it is my imagination or not) I sometimes think VG10 is just slightly easier to work with
 
I've knives in both 154CM and VG10. I can't tell them apart based on the performance.
Click to expand...

Mete, I've pretty much got the same impression that you do about the steels. Both sharpen nicely and easily as well.

My question to you would be where does VG10 get the performance to match the 4% Moly carbides in the 154cm? Does Cobalt form carbides or just work on the matrix? VG10 just has the chrome, plus the cobalt. The 154cm has the chrome plus the large amount of Moly, which pretty much make hard carbides similar to tungsten from my readings. Where do the VG10's, Aus 10, and N690co get the wear resistance of the 14/4 steels?

Thanks,


Joe
 
Way, Way back in the day, when Linder of Solingen made the first F1s. They were ATS34, not laminated though.
 
The only difference I find in my knives made in VG10 vs. 154CM or ATS34 is that I find it easier to sharpen the VG10.
As with others here, edge holding seems to be comparable.
 
Yeah both my benchmade and fallkniven have held a razor edge for a long time
 
The Mastiff said:
Mete, I've pretty much got the same impression that you do about the steels. Both sharpen nicely and easily as well.

My question to you would be where does VG10 get the performance to match the 4% Moly carbides in the 154cm? Does Cobalt form carbides or just work on the matrix? VG10 just has the chrome, plus the cobalt. The 154cm has the chrome plus the large amount of Moly, which pretty much make hard carbides similar to tungsten from my readings. Where do the VG10's, Aus 10, and N690co get the wear resistance of the 14/4 steels?

Thanks,


Joe
Click to expand...

Ummm...I'm not mete, but it was my response you quoted. So maybe you were addressing me?

If so, you are asking outside my area of expertise. I know bits and pieces of info, which I'm happy to share.

I've read that Cobalt strengthens the matrix, rather than forming carbides.

I'm not sure how much the Molybdenum forms carbides, though I do think it forms some. Remember 154CM was developed for use at high temp in gas turbine fan blades. The Moly was originally there for high temp corrosion resistance, which I have no idea how that works, but I'd hazard a guess that it does not work by the Moly forming Carbides.

Remember the VG10 does contain a bit more Chromium than 154CM, and Chromium certainly does form carbides.

At the end of the day, all I really know is that in daily use I can't tell them apart by performance.
 
Thanks Knarfeng. Sorry about the brain slip there. I knew who I was talking to but my hand typed something else as I had been looking at another thread not long before.

I was under the impression that the 14/4 steels did form carbides in those steels and they are similar in size and hardness to Tungsten steels. Yet, I get the same results as you essentially. They are all about in the same category, or class I guess we could say. I guess there is still much for me to learn. I do know that some steels use Moly for heat resistance and wear, look at the M series high speed steels for instance. I guess I don't know where the amount is in steels where they are putting it in for heat resistance, and heat treating and where it actually forms carbides.

Again, thank you for taking the time to answer. Here is something new for me to learn and research.

Joe
 
MEJ said:
Something i do not understand about Falkniven knives is why they dont have a line of 154 CM stainless. Dont' get me wrong because i love the VG-10 on my F1 but 154 seems to have some superior qualities?
Click to expand...

I don't think 154CM is superior to VG10 , both of which are in my favirote steel list , I find them to be pretty similiar in use aspects. I too have knives in both and while it depends on the RC of course I have found 154CM to be a little easier to sharpen, for my needs.

I am just grateful that Fallkniven has not become drunk with the S30V kool-aid like so many other production knife companies have. :)

Tostig
 
Last edited:
That's odd - I don't recall a paper pouch with an instant child's drink in the box with my Benchmade, Buck, or CRK S30V knives. I also seem to still wonder why a great Swedish knife is made in Japan... whatever happened to great Swedish blade steels? What about other EU sources - there are excellent Austrian Bohler steels around - even if some were designed for precision plastic moldings. Yeah, I like S30V - it is an excellent cutlery steel - if properly heat-treated. Plus - I wanted solid blades in my fixed blade knives. My two VG-10 folders have not impressed me. My S30V, S35VN, and Bohler M390 & N690 they impress me. It's good to have a choice!

I'd consider a 154CM F1 - a LE custom made by BRK&T, of course - I am not fond of their basic F1's rubbery grip, either!

Stainz
 
knarfeng said:
I'm not sure how much the Molybdenum forms carbides, though I do think it forms some. Remember 154CM was developed for use at high temp in gas turbine fan blades. The Moly was originally there for high temp corrosion resistance, which I have no idea how that works, but I'd hazard a guess that it does not work by the Moly forming Carbides.
Click to expand...

Mo can withstand tremendous heat(up to ~4,700°F). Beyond that, it's going to start to drip. Free(non-carbide forming) Mo, like Cr, forms a passivation layer. Mo fends off chloride corrosion incredibly well. Chlorides(Cl) are everywhere; in blood, cellular fluid, and of course salt. Since it can withstand much more heat than Cr(up to ~3,400°F), and since birds are continually being sucked into turbine engines(which results in their chloride-rich blood being splattered all over the place), Mo is employed.

Mo forms carbides well. Mo carbides are quite a bit harder than Cr carbides, too. In the case of 154 CM, the free Mo and Cr which do not form carbides, both contribute to corrosion resistance.
 
I have no experience with 154cm, so I wouldn't know if it has "superior" qualities to VG-10. I do know that my experience with VG-10 on my F1s has been positive. It sharpens relatively easy enough and takes a very keen edge similar to any good carbon steel. Of course it being stainless, it also has a high corrosion resistance. I've never noticed any rust on the VG-10 layer of my knives. I have seen some small spots on the 420-J2, but a little polishing took care of that. I'm a fan of VG-10 and never really thought about my F1s being made of a different stainless steel.
 
Mo forms carbides well. Mo carbides are quite a bit harder than Cr carbides, too. In the case of 154 CM, the free Mo and Cr which do not form carbides, both contribute to corrosion resistance.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the above info. I never knew that stuff. In the 14/4 steels like 154cm, how much stays free and how much would be forming carbides? I'm asking this in the sense that I'm wondering how the steels like Aus10, VG10, etc. seem to keep up wear resistance wise despite not having the harder Moly carbides as well as their chrome carbides. IMO, they are pretty similar wear resistance wise yet that's a bunch of moly in 154cm.

Thanks,

Joe
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top