Why I am not a knife FIGHTER

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Mar 30, 2000
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Many years ago I met an old fart by the name of Alan Khan. At the time Alan was a beer bellied, bug eyed, balding, snaggled tooth old timer.

Now it might help people to realize something. Alan had been wounded in Vietnam in 1958. Odd you might say since we weren't officially in Vietnam until the early 1960's. Guess what? Eisenhower had been sending in "Advisors" and Alan had been in his youth an Airborne Ranger. To put it politely, he was doing black ops wetwork. He and his team would sneak into a village where the Communists had a strong presence and the next morning the villagers would wake up to discover the head of the Communist Cadre splattered all over the walls of his hut. Alan, whose expertize was the knife, had come a callin'

Now when we met I was a stud. I mean I was young cocky and bold. I had survived a number of knife incidents and I had learned "knife fighting" from a former gang member from East LA. I was conversant in Applegate's military system and it had stood me in good stead through these altercations. My reputation was building and I was a totally billy bada**. Back then you could have listened to me click when I walked.

Well Alan and I were talking shop one day and I mentioned how a certain Chinese knife stance was giving me problem in trying to get around. He asked what it was and I showed him. He snorted in amusement and said "Oh that's easy"

Ugh unnhh! You do NOT say that kind of thing to such a studly knifefighter like myself. I told this old SOB to show me if it was all that easy. We got practice knives and I stud up and took my knife fighting stance. And he asked if I was ready.

Lesson one for the day...if someone asks you if you are ready you are about to learn an unpleasant lesson.

Lesson two...this guy blurred. I mean he was standing there all pot bellied and old one second and the next he was GONE! The next thing I knew I was being jerked to the side and his practice knife was slamming into a kill zone.

I thank god, Allah, Buddha and Bob the Mechanic that I learned an important lesson about fighting that day -- and not under a live fire situation. I was there to fight, Alan was there to kill.

He goal wasn't to impress me with what a stud he was. He wasn't there to do fancy techniques or "gee whiz wow" everyone with his martial skills. His goal was to be the one who went home that night.

He taught me a critical lesson that day. That is the difference between a fight and combat. If you go into combat thinking like a fighter, you won't like what happens. If your goal going into a knife altercation is anything other than ending it as quickly as possible, you aren't a knifer, you are a knife fighter and you will die in the real thing.

Not since that day have I called myself a knife fighter and I never will again.

Marc Animal MacYoung
 
Great story and even greater lesson.

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Full Contact Stick Fighting Hawaii
"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."


[This message has been edited by Stuart S. Igarta (edited 09-20-2000).]
 
Originally posted by Sun Helmet:
Mac, was Alan Khan one of Merrill's guys?
--Rafael--

Not that I know of, he did his time in Korea and then in Vietnam. Thing is like the Flying Tigers, Air America and all sorts of things down in South/Central America he "wasn't" there at the time.

 
So Marc, how long ago was this and how did it affect your training? I know a little off topic, but lately I've been noticing in the stickfights, people being a little too proud that they made it through two minutes without getting hurt, but not really paying attention to the fact that they didn't do any damage either. The same goes for the "knife fights" in the duelling context. It's fun to do, but on the street the guy is not going to respect the range that your weapon should be securing, therefore he won't give you the time to wind up for your power strike (with a non-bladed weapon) or even respect your blade as he runs in to KILL you. What are some of the training methods that you imply or use yourself?

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Chad
Full Contact Stickfighting Hawaii
www.fullcontacthi.com
 
Originally posted by Chad W. Getz FCSH:
So Marc, how long ago was this and how did it affect your training?

I was 24 at the time, I'm now 40.

It didn't change my training nearly as it changed my attitude about going into fights. I no longer was there to fight the guy, I was there to resolve it quickly before he could damage me. Before I had fought to cause damage and punish, ever since then I go in with the sole intent of "Game over...NOW!"

Before I had this experience there were many times that I got my ass kicked in "fights." However, taking on this clearly defined goal is why since that time I have never been taken down in a real fight. Because simply put, I am not there to fight or prove anything. I'm there to survive.

As for training, I would eventually end up stripping out anything that wasn't immediately effective in manifesting this goal. If it didn't work after three tries to learn it or required special and exact conditions in order to be effective, I wrote it off.

I know a little off topic, but lately I've been noticing in the stickfights, people being a little too proud that they made it through two minutes without getting hurt, but not really paying attention to the fact >that they didn't do any damage either.

Exactly, one of my major complaints with much of what has crept into the FMA is the karatesque "I can stand there and take it" mindset. It's sticks after all. I'm sorry kids but that is a dangerous attitude to take against a weapon.

What are some of the training methods that you imply or use yourself?

Br'er Bear Fu..."les jes bash em onna hed" I don't throw an impact move that doesn't have my entire bodyweight behind it, and I always remember the real danger is guy I am fighting, not what he is doing at the moment. He is my target, my objective is to take him out.
 
Marc,
Br'er Bear Fu..."les jes bash em onna hed" I don't throw an impact move that doesn't have my entire bodyweight behind it, and I always remember the real danger is guy I am fighting, not what he is doing at the moment. He is my target, my objective is to take him out.

Could you be specific as far as what technique/move you do to close that gap on your opponent.

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Full Contact Stick Fighting Hawaii
"If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle."
 
Originally posted by Stuart S. Igarta:
Marc,
Could you be specific as far as what technique/move you do to close that gap on your opponent.

How you do it is less important than the fact that you do it.

If you get caught up in "how" you fall into the very trap I was discussing, in other words putting the means over the end.

Precedence is no excuse for failure
 
Originally posted by Marc Animal MacYoung:
How you do it is less important than the fact that you do it.

If you get caught up in "how" you fall into the very trap I was discussing, in other words putting the means over the end.

You wind up getting caught in the "classical mess" I believe. I was watching the fight tapes of two of the guys that came to us and started fighting without any training and was thinking to myself, "Ah, that's what a stickfight is all about." These two guys don't know any techniques, don't have any style, they just want to hit each other. They took the basic elements of combat and swung to hit each other. By focussing too much on the techniques, one can entangle himself in the classical mess. Ironic. Like BL said something to the sort. A punch was just a punch, when I started training, it wasn't, when I understood, it was just a punch.(It's not the exact quote, but bear with me.)


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Chad
Full Contact Stickfighting Hawaii
www.fullcontacthi.com
 
Originally posted by Donna Barnas:
Marc,

Good story. I understand exactly what you are saying but I view the attitude that you are talking about as a boy thing... the effects of testosterone running in the viens.


I'd agree with you except for one thing.

The one time I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that I was going to die was with a woman who thought I was hurting her child. We we in fact, doing an emergency run to first aid because she had gone into respratory arrest and at the time I didn't know CPR. The child had been with her grandparents when we found them. En route, momma found us.

As we were blasting through huge crowds like an icebreaker on meth, Momma came out of nowhere and backhanded a 180 pound dude running flank to me like he was a piece of lint. She sent him flying backwards as sort of a byproduct of her goal of killing me for threatening her child. That woman weighed maybe 120 and came up to my eyebrows...a tiny little person.

And, as I said, I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt, despite all my training and experience, that there was nothing I could do from stopping her from taking me out. I was going to die. (Fortunately, a much smarter part of me grabbed my mouth and shouted "first aid" where upon Momma realized I was helping not hurting her child.)

The point wasn't that she had many years of martial arts training. What counted is she had total concentration on acheiving her goal. Nothing else mattered and that allowed her to act towards a goal with pure effecincy. The kind of effecincy I am trying to explain here.

That is the difference between "fighting" and what Alain did. When you fight, you think of many things, strategy, tactics, training, defense, what is the right way to move, the wrong way to move, etc. etc.

Alain, like that mother, was totally dedicated to achieving an end...and that is why I, who had other priorities, lost against him. It's not about testostorine or estrogen, it's about focus.
 
Marc, your story about Alan was disturbingly familiar. I wholeheartedly agree! I notice that "fighter" is, at least in this thread, being redefined within the context of the "combat 'arts' forum". Then, in your admirably bluntish way you introduce the concept of "bear-fu". After devoting over 25 years to traditional asian arts, from Kung Fu to Shotokan, Full Contact to Zen, I "discovered" a form of "bear-fu" that put an end to my career as a full time 'dojo' instructor and 'noted' disciple under the 'chosen ones of old'. I had just come off a one month zen retreat at a monastery in Japan returned to the states and resumed M/A teaching and tournaments, etc. To keep this brief let me say that I was untouchable. Opponents were physically outpointed and psychologically/morally trounced. Let me also say that formalities and technique, as well as the excitement of competition, winning or losing, ceased to exist. Bluntly, when the whistle or bell went off I went to work, emotionless, without sympathy or pity, or fear. This seems to be the essence of "bear fu". I like the name and your description. Just like momma-bear in the forest. Cute. Cuddly. Just doing her job.
Great thread. Great group. Thanks Mac.
Jion.
 
Donna, your comment regarding the dispassionate response to confrontation by a woman is spot on. My wife is a fourth dan in traditional Shotokan (very little weapons training). The other day we were sparring with practice knives. We have not sparred let alone practice in years. While I was methodically "defanging" there was a very loud and painful thump as she reverse punched me in the ribs and leg swept me to the floor. Here comment was, "We can do this later because I've got to pick up the kids from school!" Yes. Women don't have time for ego.
 
Aren't there situations where "ending it NOW" doesn't mean killing? Aren't there times when you don't want to kill (I'm not speaking of combat in the military context here). Isn't it much harder to put an opponent out of action quickly without killing? Do we not train for exactly this?
 
Odd, the wheel seems to be turning.

Despite the faults of Karate

(lack of fluidity, the slowness of the four basic blocks, moves in Kata that no one knows why the hell they're there or what they mean, the difficulty in sparring 'realistically' i.e, full contact, etc.)

The one defining point was the 'one blow destroy' dictum.

( Oh yeah, and never getting into "fights" despite any verbal provocation; it was considered deadly combat for survival, not sport)

Naturally if one blow didn't do it, you continued the attack, but the one shot stop ideal seemd to produce the mindset we've all been talking about.

Then TKD became the craze, then Bruce Lee and JKD, then sports kickboxing, then Brazilian Ju-Jitsu and who knows what the flavor of the next decade will be?

(Except that whayever it is it'll denounce the previous ones as unrealistic and ineffective)

But when it comes to defending one's life and the attitude it takes to do so, whether we're gtapplers, boxers, FMA or whatever, is it really necessary to keep re-inventing the wheel?

My thanks to all who have posted. An interesting thread.
 
Originally posted by matthew rapaport:
Aren't there situations where "ending it NOW" doesn't mean killing? Aren't there times when you don't want to kill (I'm not speaking of combat in the military context here). Isn't it much harder to put an opponent out of action quickly without killing? Do we not train for exactly this?

Maybe the guy standing against you is not a "fighter" but a killer. Maybe the goal is not to fight like this, but to fight someone that fights like this. And the secret to fighting him? Maybe to fight like this.



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Chad
Full Contact Stickfighting Hawaii
www.fullcontacthi.com
 
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