I figured I'd ask this here b/f the Spydeco forum. I know Jaguar makes butterflies, and Benchmade's pretty much the standard when it comes to production bali's, but has anyone approached, say, Spyderco for producing balisongs? I figure this: They put out the Civilian and now are coming out w/ the Gunting, and have "tactical" models like the Police and Military, so why not balisongs? I figure this is worth mentioning b/c Spyderco's right up there w/ Benchmade when it comes to popular knives and think that Spyderco balisongs would be kind of a neat idea. BTW, who else makes good bali's?
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Why is Benchmade the only big company making bali's?
- Thread starter Thrawn
- Start date
This coincides pretty well with the post proposing a clip-it balisong. The only thing that would be missing would be the spyder-hole. But it's a pretty good idea. It'd be nice to have another company offering a quality balisong, and maybe at not such a high price (for me, at least).
As for other good balisongs besides benchmade, the company line is jaguar, followed by bear and assorted china cheapies.
I don't have any experience with jaguars yet, but I personally haven't had any problems with the bear tanto edge. I'm sure I'll be shouted down on this one, though.
Should definitely take this over to the spyderco forum, though.
As for other good balisongs besides benchmade, the company line is jaguar, followed by bear and assorted china cheapies.
I don't have any experience with jaguars yet, but I personally haven't had any problems with the bear tanto edge. I'm sure I'll be shouted down on this one, though.
Should definitely take this over to the spyderco forum, though.
Clay
Balisong forum Moderator
- Joined
- Jul 15, 1999
- Messages
- 871
Ya know guys....... this has crossed my mind several times in the past.
Especially when I found out that Sal Glesser (Pres. of Spyderco) has quite a large collection of Benchmade Balis.
I don't know if he'd want to compete against his friends at BM for that market though.
Excellent thought.........
------------------
Clay
www.balisongxtreme.com
Because......
getting 'em open
is half the fun!
Especially when I found out that Sal Glesser (Pres. of Spyderco) has quite a large collection of Benchmade Balis.
I don't know if he'd want to compete against his friends at BM for that market though.
Excellent thought.........
------------------
Clay
www.balisongxtreme.com
Because......
getting 'em open
is half the fun!
Gollnick
Musical Director
- Joined
- Mar 22, 1999
- Messages
- 29,258
Inasmuchas even owning a balisong is illegal in many states and only a few allow legal carry, the market for balisongs is actually quite small.
Furthermore, the market for expensive (more than about $50) balisongs is significantly smaller. Most balisongs are sold to highschool kids who think they're "cool", but who really don't have much money and who will loose interest in the knife quickly anyway.
Between Jaguar, Bear, and Benchmade, not to mention the charming China cheapies, the market is well met.
Initial orders for BM's 42 are strong, but they're a fluke. This is pent up market demand from the last two years. While I think BM has a great knife here and I think it will be a market success and a good seller for them, I think they know that this initial level of demand won't be sustained.
I am pleased, however, with the level of positive exposure that this forum will bring within the cutlery community and I hope it will spark some new interest.
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Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
Furthermore, the market for expensive (more than about $50) balisongs is significantly smaller. Most balisongs are sold to highschool kids who think they're "cool", but who really don't have much money and who will loose interest in the knife quickly anyway.
Between Jaguar, Bear, and Benchmade, not to mention the charming China cheapies, the market is well met.
Initial orders for BM's 42 are strong, but they're a fluke. This is pent up market demand from the last two years. While I think BM has a great knife here and I think it will be a market success and a good seller for them, I think they know that this initial level of demand won't be sustained.
I am pleased, however, with the level of positive exposure that this forum will bring within the cutlery community and I hope it will spark some new interest.
------------------
Chuck
Balisongs -- because it don't mean a thing if it ain't got that swing!
http://www.balisongcollector.com
- Joined
- Oct 19, 1999
- Messages
- 2,836
My heory and upcoming thesis
concides with Gollnick's in the sense that:
1. Companies do not want to dela with legalities.. especially those housed iN CA Ernest Emerson expressed this to me in an email.
2. the market is quite small for it.
3. iN my opinion the high cost of making the knives.
and to answer some questions.. check out my review of the bear tantoes.. it s a long rambly whiny review very personal and opinionated, but I am a fan of Jaguars which is the best china cheapie for thse who cant find a BM custom.
Also if you want other good high end brands for balisongs, Taylor is top, second to compass, in my opinion parkers fall third in the category.
I have only heard bad thigns about vallor and the rest but stilla good alternative to charminf china cheapies.
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<A HREF="http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~soo/balisong/balisong.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~soo/balisong/balisong.html
</A> If you play with love you will be heartbroken; if you play with knives you will [bleed]
1. Companies do not want to dela with legalities.. especially those housed iN CA Ernest Emerson expressed this to me in an email.
2. the market is quite small for it.
3. iN my opinion the high cost of making the knives.
and to answer some questions.. check out my review of the bear tantoes.. it s a long rambly whiny review very personal and opinionated, but I am a fan of Jaguars which is the best china cheapie for thse who cant find a BM custom.
Also if you want other good high end brands for balisongs, Taylor is top, second to compass, in my opinion parkers fall third in the category.
I have only heard bad thigns about vallor and the rest but stilla good alternative to charminf china cheapies.
------------------
<A HREF="http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~soo/balisong/balisong.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~soo/balisong/balisong.html
</A> If you play with love you will be heartbroken; if you play with knives you will [bleed]
- Joined
- Dec 23, 1999
- Messages
- 127
Hey Thrawn.
While Benchmade is really the only high-quality production game in town (and until the 42 comes out they're not even that), I did correspond with a guy from Knife Outlet who was interested in making a good production bali as an alternative. I don't know if he still wants to do it, but the way he was talking it would be a great knife.
While Benchmade is really the only high-quality production game in town (and until the 42 comes out they're not even that), I did correspond with a guy from Knife Outlet who was interested in making a good production bali as an alternative. I don't know if he still wants to do it, but the way he was talking it would be a great knife.
I´d like to add that there are some companies in Europe who are delivering ok quality.
First of all, Herbertz (who does a lot of distribution for high-prized American firms, and even carried the Benchmade production balisong line) is marketing most of the cheapo China stuff. I´ve had quite a few of those over the years, and I have never broke a single pin, even on the cheapest ones, but there were lots of broken zamac handles. I hate zamac.
Second, the small German company "Stahlwarenhaus Haller" is producing some nice balisongs: They even do affordable (ca. USD 30) steel-handle balis, and brass handled ones. Blades are good quality. I never torture-tested these, but they look and feel ok, constructionwise.
Third, I´ve seen Spanish balisongs made by Nieto, which is a quite respected company in Spain. They looked very fragile, but wellmade. Might be worth a try.
So I suggest some US dealer (maybe knifeoutlet.com, as they seemed interested) could import some reasonably prized, reasonably decent European balisongs.
First of all, Herbertz (who does a lot of distribution for high-prized American firms, and even carried the Benchmade production balisong line) is marketing most of the cheapo China stuff. I´ve had quite a few of those over the years, and I have never broke a single pin, even on the cheapest ones, but there were lots of broken zamac handles. I hate zamac.
Second, the small German company "Stahlwarenhaus Haller" is producing some nice balisongs: They even do affordable (ca. USD 30) steel-handle balis, and brass handled ones. Blades are good quality. I never torture-tested these, but they look and feel ok, constructionwise.
Third, I´ve seen Spanish balisongs made by Nieto, which is a quite respected company in Spain. They looked very fragile, but wellmade. Might be worth a try.
So I suggest some US dealer (maybe knifeoutlet.com, as they seemed interested) could import some reasonably prized, reasonably decent European balisongs.
I take a more bullish approach to the market than my esteemed colleagues. I think that interest in the balisong is going to grow, and that we are seeing the tip of the iceberg.
I don't think legalities are as much a factor as people think. My evidence is the auto market. It is growing by leaps and bounds. Compared to a few years ago, the auto market has exploded. I'd say that that this market is analogous to, and indicative of, the potential balisong surge. As further evidence, the favorable court ruling on tactical knives is indicative of a trend of lesser regulation.
Right now, manufacturers are watching the tactical knife market and looking for ways to exploit it. I believe that people are going to explore the balisong market as an alternative. I believe that Benchmade pulled the balisong off the market, saw that demand was growing and not falling, and is now positioning itself to exploit the market and act as the leader. Remember, BM is a business, and making knives is not their hobby.
I think what we're seeing is a process of rediscovery. Collectors are taking a renewed interest, and new knife buyers are going to see the balisong as a fascinating alternative. My previous posts on the amazing prices being paid for BM balis has spawned this train of thought. The bellweather will be the custom knife market. We've seen movement by collectors, Benchmade is well positioned, all indicators are pointing to increased interest.
Thus ends my long-winded opinion.
------------------
-ramius
"oderint dum metuant"
I don't think legalities are as much a factor as people think. My evidence is the auto market. It is growing by leaps and bounds. Compared to a few years ago, the auto market has exploded. I'd say that that this market is analogous to, and indicative of, the potential balisong surge. As further evidence, the favorable court ruling on tactical knives is indicative of a trend of lesser regulation.
Right now, manufacturers are watching the tactical knife market and looking for ways to exploit it. I believe that people are going to explore the balisong market as an alternative. I believe that Benchmade pulled the balisong off the market, saw that demand was growing and not falling, and is now positioning itself to exploit the market and act as the leader. Remember, BM is a business, and making knives is not their hobby.
I think what we're seeing is a process of rediscovery. Collectors are taking a renewed interest, and new knife buyers are going to see the balisong as a fascinating alternative. My previous posts on the amazing prices being paid for BM balis has spawned this train of thought. The bellweather will be the custom knife market. We've seen movement by collectors, Benchmade is well positioned, all indicators are pointing to increased interest.
Thus ends my long-winded opinion.
------------------
-ramius
"oderint dum metuant"
Being of the same train of thought as ramius (that's why I brought up this thread), I too believe that the balisong market will grow and will second the citation of the auto market. Legalities are an issue, yes, but look at how Buck knives "legalized" one handed folders and the Spydie hole. Thus, I find this to be a marginal concern, especially if such a hugely respected company like Spyderco were thinking of producing bali's. In addition, I'd like to mention another point ramius brought up: the tactical market is in a stage of growth. In a time where people like James Keating and Steve Tarani (not to mention Datu Kelly Worden) produce videos and books on knife-fighting, Keating bringing a renewed interest in Bowie methodology and Tarani showing how to use a kerambit (scary!), it is an eventuality that the balisong will experience a rebirth in popularity, especially amongst martial artists and collectors. I think, though, that the idea of a butterfly knife rebirth is also dependent upon a company's willingness to produce said knives for its customer base, especially if that base will guarantee its loyalty (reflected not only in intitial sales, but also in sales and trades after those models are discontinued). Look at Microtech, the apparent, or so I've heard, kings of the auto world. What market share do you think they cater to the greatest? The average Joe who needs to cut bails and open mail? Or the street ninja, the collector, or the few people who are truly tactical types (as opposed to the street ninjas)?
Additionally, martial arts in general have taken an upswing w/ the advent of instructional videos and sites like Clay's. These media make martial arts more accessible and more convenient to learn from. B/c of this, more people can be exposed to Mike Janich tossing balisongs around or Clay doing double manipulations. What's more, people see that SKILL is required when handling the 'song and what does skill bring? Confidence, and a little ego. But you can be only as confident in your skill as you are in your weapon. Hence, the need for a good quality bali. Frank, a fellow member, has told me that, w/ a simple handle flail, he bent one of his slabs upon impact w/ his desk (still have to see just how messed up your desk is, Frank). Would that happen w/ the BM 42? Now, I'm not saying that everyone should go out and buy the new BM bali, but, while cheapies are good for the rudimentary, and this is only an opinion derived from working w/ the stick and w/ nunchaku, I believe that the more advanced stuff should be left up to quality tools. See what I'm saying here?
Okay, so the logic goes like this: Spyderco should make balisongs b/c:
1) The tactical/MA market's growing and Spyderco already serves that market and
2) B/c media is allowing for the spread of interest in said MA's which leads to
3) A bunch of folks trying to develop their skills, but, finding inadequacies in their cheapies, move as a consumer force to lobby for a selection of higher quality balis, which, of course, leads to why Spyderco should make butterflies.
Additionally, martial arts in general have taken an upswing w/ the advent of instructional videos and sites like Clay's. These media make martial arts more accessible and more convenient to learn from. B/c of this, more people can be exposed to Mike Janich tossing balisongs around or Clay doing double manipulations. What's more, people see that SKILL is required when handling the 'song and what does skill bring? Confidence, and a little ego. But you can be only as confident in your skill as you are in your weapon. Hence, the need for a good quality bali. Frank, a fellow member, has told me that, w/ a simple handle flail, he bent one of his slabs upon impact w/ his desk (still have to see just how messed up your desk is, Frank). Would that happen w/ the BM 42? Now, I'm not saying that everyone should go out and buy the new BM bali, but, while cheapies are good for the rudimentary, and this is only an opinion derived from working w/ the stick and w/ nunchaku, I believe that the more advanced stuff should be left up to quality tools. See what I'm saying here?
Okay, so the logic goes like this: Spyderco should make balisongs b/c:
1) The tactical/MA market's growing and Spyderco already serves that market and
2) B/c media is allowing for the spread of interest in said MA's which leads to
3) A bunch of folks trying to develop their skills, but, finding inadequacies in their cheapies, move as a consumer force to lobby for a selection of higher quality balis, which, of course, leads to why Spyderco should make butterflies.
- Joined
- Oct 16, 1998
- Messages
- 2,395
I have always thought that it was a labor of love for Les DeAsis. He loves the Balisong, and he keeps producing them for other people who love them, not because it is going to be a big business win for his company. I doubt that the high-end production Balisong line will ever be a major revenue stream for any knife company. It is too radical.
Thank you Les!
Thank you Les!
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2000
- Messages
- 19
I agree that the Bali market is on the rise, simple because of the net. The net is not influenced by local laws and there for can sell a Bali to anyone. I think the majority of the market is kids that want to get in trouble, or have a knife to play with. Most knives over $150 will not sell nearly as much as a $150 tactical knife, because you can not legally carry these in most states. Plus who is going to risk having a $150 confiscated over a $40 knife.
I think we see few custom Bali-songs because they are most likely a difficult knife to make.
1. There is not much to hang onto when grinding it.
2. You can not totally guarantee them because they will all degenerate; this is their nature.
3. More time consuming, there is more assembly required.
I think that Bali-songs should be presented as a challenge to knife makers. This might increase interest by custom knife makers.
I do not know if this is right, but it is how I see it.
Vlad
I think we see few custom Bali-songs because they are most likely a difficult knife to make.
1. There is not much to hang onto when grinding it.
2. You can not totally guarantee them because they will all degenerate; this is their nature.
3. More time consuming, there is more assembly required.
I think that Bali-songs should be presented as a challenge to knife makers. This might increase interest by custom knife makers.
I do not know if this is right, but it is how I see it.
Vlad