Why is Ichiro KD30-104 knife unsatisfactory?

N

Naphtali

Joined
May 20, 2002
Messages
148
I used a hunting buddy's recently delivered (ordered in 2015) built-to-order knife for a couple of weeks as my kitchen knife. I found it to be unsatisfactory as kitchen cutlery - and dangerous. But I do not know why, and I do not know if its faults, as I perceive them, can be remedied.

Although I have no ability to include photographs, the knife is a Hattori KD30-104 (Cowry-X Damascus Presentation Master Hunter III) hunting knife, hand made and signed by Ichiro Hattori. Blade is a drop point with a flat grind. Its dimensions are:

Total length = 230 mm (9.06 inches)
Blade length = 115 mm (4.53 inches)
Blade height = 28.4 mm (1.12 inches)
Blade thickness = 5.0 mm (.0196 inches) nominal

The blade is extremely sharp, its edge more finely finished than any knife I have owned. I'm betting this was done either on some sort of rouged buffing wheel or crock sticks. When slicing raw onion or raw potato or anything similar, the blade is prohibitively difficult to use as a cutting tool.

But slicing fingers - mine, when I attempted to manhandle the blade through a large diameter raw onion - the blade is so sharp that I did not feel the slice. I saw onion being soaked in dark red. The cut was at least .25 inch deep and .40 inch long.

The KD30-104's blade is no thicker than many Randall hunting knives that are forged from .25-inch stock. Its grind should allow it to cut or slice more easily than Randalls having their ubiquitous saber grind. And its middle 60s HRC with highly polished finish should render it significantly easier to use than .25-inch forging stock Randalls. Yet I am unaware of Randall hunting knives being described as "unsatisfactory" and "dangerous" by anyone who has used one.

So what is the KD30-104's problem that I do not recognize? If the problem capable of being remedied, how is it achieved? Ichiro is about 80 years old. It is probable that the knife shipped back to Japan would not be worked on before Ichio's retirement or death - that is, returned to its owner without being worked on.
 
I am sure some of the experts will chime in but hunting knives and kitchen knives are built for the intended purposes, which are very different.

The hunting knife you are using is too thick for food preparation.

You should post this on one of the kitchen knife forums and get better exposure to the experts.
 
Is this similar? It’s labled as a Crowery-steel ‘Master Hunter’....
KD30-101b.jpg

Any knife is ‘dangerous’ if not used properly or not necessarily made for the task at hand.

I’ve cut myself an uncounted number of times but I never blamed the knife or thought one was too sharp.
 
So a hunting knife, designed to cut flesh, cut you, and you think there is something wrong with it? Just give the knife back to your friend and tell him it works fine.
 
I've read and re-read this post, so let me ask, what do you think is wrong with the knife, N Naphtali ?

What would you ask the maker to fix, if you sent it in?
 
Is that Damascus San Mai? Good looking knife.

As said, testing a hunting knife in the kitchen you're gonna get bad results. I've played with my seax and cutting tomatoes for fun, and even used my cutlass to trim out tri-tip roasts. It was all more work than if I'd used my kitchen knives.

Chef knife= high handle for knuckle clearance, blade made for push or pull cut (I've heard of people doing a pull, never met anyone that does it), sharp but seldom "shaving" sharp because you get to a point of diminishing returns.

I say take the knife to your local steakhouse, use it for your dinner. See how it does there.

Red
 
herdbull said:
I am sure some of the experts will chime in but hunting knives and kitchen knives are built for the intended purposes, which are very different.

The hunting knife you are using is too thick for food preparation.

You should post this on one of the kitchen knife forums and get better exposure to the experts.
Click to expand...

EXACTLY!!!
 
Ignoring those who justifiably identified me as not as bright as I should be, I understand my blind spot as being analogous to trying to use a Formula One car to haul a horse trailer. The knife has been returned to its owner, and unsurprisingly his analysis is as is your collective one.
***
The knife is not San Mai. Rather it is a stainless steel Damascus outer layers with Cowry-X center one.
***
The knife is kind've similar to your photograph, but drop point rather than spear point with false edge. Hilt is protective only below the blade.

Oh and those who have interest, quality of assembly and finish is excellent. I'm uncertain what his buying price was - high three figures for sure.
Dago Red said:
Is that Damascus San Mai? Good looking knife.

As said, testing a hunting knife in the kitchen you're gonna get bad results. I've played with my seax and cutting tomatoes for fun, and even used my cutlass to trim out tri-tip roasts. It was all more work than if I'd used my kitchen knives.

Chef knife= high handle for knuckle clearance, blade made for push or pull cut (I've heard of people doing a pull, never met anyone that does it), sharp but seldom "shaving" sharp because you get to a point of diminishing returns.

I say take the knife to your local steakhouse, use it for your dinner. See how it does there.

Red
Click to expand...
 
This is straightforward.
A kitchen knife must be THIN because you are cutting through THICK material. Kitchen knives are only a few thousandths thick behind the edge, and an 0.125" thick (at the spine) chef knife would be considered thick. Thick kitchen knives wedge badly, and they tend to steer toward the thinner part of the cut.

You need knuckle clearance on a chef knife because you are usually cutting on a board - very unlike a hunting knife. And the grip used for a kitchen knife is substantially different than for a hunting knife. Guards on kitchen knives generally don't exist.

For rock cuts, you need a LONG blade, without too much belly near the tip, otherwise the motion is awkwardly high at the heel.

For onions specifically, a thick blade will crush the cells of the onion behind the cut as it wedges in, which will spray onion juice into the air. Horrible for the eyes. A nice thin, SHARP chef knife will glide through with minimal spray. Much happier eyes.

So... geometry is critical, and most hunting knives make lousy kitchen knives, though some might be good at carving up a chicken.

In fact, I'd reverse your analogy: You tried to use a Dodge Ram to drive a Formula-1 track. ;)

Watch some videos of chefs at work with their blades, and then try each technique with a proper chef knife and then the hunting knife, and you'll be able to demonstrate the issues for yourself.
 
As a chef this is an interesting subject to me. Not due to the OP’s misuse of the knife but because I regularly look at hunting knives for kitchen use. If blade stock is 3mm or less for a smaller knife (5” or less) and has a full flat grind it is usable for kitchen work. Of course details like no bottom finger come into play as well.

I recently commissioned a smallish knife to use as a parer. Its blade stock is 3mm with a full flat grind. I’ll soon see how well it performs.

One such blade designed for field work in hunting situations that has gotten my attention is the Lithuanian-made TRC Splinter 120. It’s a bit thicker at 3.4mm but I’m willing to give it a try.
 
As others have stated, it is not a knife designed to cut vegetables in the kitchen. It is designed to skin/gut/dress out animals. It won't cut onions well. I bet it would be a dandy for the task it is designed for.
That is pretty robust.

That knife would need significant regrinding to be a decent kitchen knife, and the handle, and finger guard would limit it's usefulness for that task anyway.

There is likely nothing to fix with the design, as it was designed for a task other than what you were using it for. If you asked the maker ro make a knife for kitchen food prep, he would likely ask you what kind of food prep?? A bread knife is a kitchen knife, but not for cutting onions, or veggies. I have a 16 inch butcher knife, and it is also not really for cutting onions or veggies. It excels at long, slicing cuts to make a clean slice thoroug a large piece of meat.

My chefs knives and Nakiri and santoku style knives are better designs for kitchen work.

So it is not an unsatisfactory design. You are pressing a knife to a use it is not optimal for.

I sometimes do this, if I have a new knife I want to try, for fun.
 
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Naphtali said:
The knife is not San Mai. Rather it is a stainless steel Damascus outer layers with Cowry-X center one.
Click to expand...


Just for clarification...that is San Mai construction.

I have handled several Hattori knives and they are absolutely beautiful, very well made. But the one you have is really not made for kitchen use. Just like any other cutting implement, can it be made to work...sure, but the user has to understand what they are asking a knife to do and then adapt how you use the knife.
 
marchone said:
As a chef this is an interesting subject to me. Not due to the OP’s misuse of the knife but because I regularly look at hunting knives for kitchen use. If blade stock is 3mm or less for a smaller knife (5” or less) and has a full flat grind it is usable for kitchen work. Of course details like no bottom finger come into play as well.

I recently commissioned a smallish knife to use as a parer. Its blade stock is 3mm with a full flat grind. I’ll soon see how well it performs.

One such blade designed for field work in hunting situations that has gotten my attention is the Lithuanian-made TRC Splinter 120. It’s a bit thicker at 3.4mm but I’m willing to give it a try.
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Early on, I made the mistake of trying to make paring knives with blades that were too tall/wide and/or too thick. They simply won't turn in material. Most hunting knives these days are a bit too tall to make good paring knives, even with a FFG. 3/32" is about the thickest stock I'd like on a paring knife, and it should be FFG with a distal taper. I've definitely done (and use and like) a couple with 0.110" stock and not quiiiite enough taper, but you can tell the difference right way. Go down to 1/16" and you get real slicey, but a lot more flex (and much trickier to grind!).

And by the scale of some of the serious makers here, I'm still 'early-on'. ;)
 
Yup. Trying to reinvent the wheel always comes up hard. Still, over three decades of pro use with factory paring knives I always felt something lacking. Always. I stopped counting them at 30 knives or so I tried. BTW, I differentiate quite a bit between say, 3-inch parers and 5-inch utility blades. (to my mind the TRC Splinter 120 is a general use utility blade) I'm convinced there is a happy medium. But I haven't found it yet. A true grail perhaps.

I got another brainstorm recently (I know it's dangerous) upon seeing the Schrade 2156OT. IMO the pattern has potential with a couple modifications. There has to be a better way of choking up a grip on a small knife that I have yet seen.
 
Naphtali said:
Ignoring those who justifiably identified me as not as bright as I should be, I understand my blind spot as being analogous to trying to use a Formula One car to haul a horse trailer. The knife has been returned to its owner, and unsurprisingly his analysis is as is your collective one.
***
The knife is not San Mai. Rather it is a stainless steel Damascus outer layers with Cowry-X center one.
***
The knife is kind've similar to your photograph, but drop point rather than spear point with false edge. Hilt is protective only below the blade.

Oh and those who have interest, quality of assembly and finish is excellent. I'm uncertain what his buying price was - high three figures for sure.
Click to expand...

Your definition is exactly what SAN MAI is...........
 
marchone said:
BTW, I differentiate quite a bit between say, 3-inch parers and 5-inch utility blades. (to my mind the TRC Splinter 120 is a general use utility blade) I'm convinced there is a happy medium. But I haven't found it yet. A true grail perhaps.

I got another brainstorm recently (I know it's dangerous) upon seeing the Schrade 2156OT. IMO the pattern has potential with a couple modifications. There has to be a better way of choking up a grip on a small knife that I have yet seen.
Click to expand...

My intuitive rule of thumb is that if your 'paring knife' causes a crisp apple to break apart before it cuts cleanly through, then it's too thick.
I do 3.5" paring knives out of 3/32" material, and they are the closest I've come to a not-flexy paring knife that still performs in food. 1/16" is by far the sliciest, but tricky to grind and definitely a kitchen-only blade. But if I do the same pattern out of 0.125", I'll call the same pattern a Bird & Trout or a 'Picnic Knife'. Although we're only talking 1/32" differences, the angles are substantially different due to the modest blade height. 0.110" stock is right on the fence: With a bit of flat grinding to remove mill scale and an aggressive distal taper, it falls into the paring knife category. Left as-milled and/or saber ground, it's B&T. Of course if you're forging, you can start wherever you want and pound in your taper, but common flat stock dimensions provide good reference points.

If you're willing to compromise performance, you might be able to find your grail knife from a major manufacturer, but it probably won't be a paring knife. You'll likely be better served commissioning the blade you most desire instead of trying to shoehorn factory blades into different footwear.
 
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daizee said:
My intuitive rule of thumb is that if your 'paring knife' causes a crisp apple to break apart before it cuts cleanly through, then it's too thick.
I do 3.5" paring knives out of 3/32" material, and they are the closest I've come to a not-flexy paring knife that still performs in food. 1/16" is by far the sliciest, but tricky to grind and definitely a kitchen-only blade. But if I do the same pattern out of 0.125", I'll call the same pattern a Bird & Trout or a 'Picnic Knife'. Although we're only talking 1/32" differences, the angles are substantially different due to the modest blade height. 0.110" stock is right on the fence: With a bit of flat grinding to remove mill scale and an aggressive distal taper, it falls into the paring knife category. Left as-milled and/or saber ground, it's B&T. Of course if you're forging, you can start wherever you want and pound in your taper, but common flat stock dimensions provide good reference points.

If you're willing to compromise performance, you might be able to find your grail knife from a major manufacturer, but it probably won't be a paring knife. You'll likely be better served commissioning the blade you most desire instead of trying to shoehorn factory blades into different footwear.
Click to expand...

We're on the same page as to blade stock thickness. But too thin just feels flimsy, and I typically do not want any flex in what is effectively a small sticker. Of course wedges don't work. How well a knife slices an apple has long been the gold standard. A couple of good ones I have had started at 3mm at the ricasso and were distally tapered to the tip from there. Always a full flat grind to a micro cutting edge.

Horses for courses. If I want a near transparent paper thin slice of a fruit or vegetable I'll turn to a mandoline. Meat gets partially frozen and put on an electric deli slicer for the thinnest slices imaginable.

I started cooking professionally in '71 for nearly two years, took a ten-year detour, and went into high end kitchens for the next three decades. My main tools were consistently a Wustof 4584/26 10-inch Heavy Chef's knife, a 5 or 6-inch utility blade, and a smaller paring knife. Additional knives suited specialized needs at the time of any particular menu items. I stopped counting paring knives after I acquired at least 30 different ones or so. I probably accumulated another dozen or so since. Every one lacked something that I couldn't quite put my finger on, so to speak. My search for a perfect utility knife was pretty much the same until I found a very old French Butcher's pattern no longer common.

My focus now for a paring knife is on the pattern. That's where the shortcomings always are. Specifically in the transition from handle to blade.

Somewhat surprisingly, my current most commonly used paring knife resembles a miniature Wustof Chef's knife. It's a 3 1/2" Regent Sheffield of indeterminate age and has a 3mm full tang, integral bolster instead of a ricasso and the blade stock is distally tapered along the spine to the tip. As an aside, every knifemaker I have engaged on the subject of the Wustof bolster hates them for sharpening but the weight and strength (on the Classic Chef's knife models) allows the last couple inches of the blade to be used as a light cleaver without fear of chipping the edge. Interestingly, the little one's bolster, although seemingly over-engineered and unnecessary at first glance, aids the transition I mentioned above in an unexpected way allowing one to choke up on it seamlessly for fine detail work.

I'm still ruminating on it all, but if you have an interest in a newish design we could continue this discussion offline.

By the way, this guy has a couple interesting ideas about handle design. I particularly like his thumb shelf.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/yall-might-think-im-crazy-but.1636331/#post-18703748
 
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marchone said:
...My search for a perfect utility knife was pretty much the same until I found a very old French Butcher's pattern no longer common. ...
Click to expand...


Pics plox
 
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