Why no love for flares?

HikingMano

HikingMano

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Left to right: Flare, K&M Matchcase with REI stormproof matches and striker, 50ml conical tube with full size Bic (more matches + striker and trick birthday candles to fill dead-space and prevent rattling), LMF firesteel, 50ml conical tube with PJCBs, char cloth.

I sometimes carry a signal flare like pictured above when outside. That's an "Orion Safety Signal Flare / Firestarter". Orion claims a five minute burn time at over 3400* (I'm guessing F), it's waterproof, it doesn't require anything for ignition other than the built-in striker cap, and would only require gross motor skills. It serves as both a fire-starter and signaling device. If I had to use mine to start a fire for immediate warmth, I'd gather appropriate kindling (which would require no to minimal prep), throw half of it together in a pile, throw the lit flare on, then pile the other half of the kindling on (5-min flare burn time) and build and maintain from there. It seems to me that if you were in a situation where you needed fire, and you needed it now, having one of these flares would greatly stack odds in your favor, assuming availability of fuel and ability to acquire and prep it. You could boost the effectiveness if you had a heatsheet/blanket to wrap up in to block wind/rain/snow and reflect IR.

My normal fire-starting progression goes (good or non-emergency conditions, full dexterity):
Firesteel + natural tinder -- if not in a rush and just bumming around or practicing tinder selection and prep
Bic -- in a rush and conditions permitting
Matches -- in a rush and conditions permitting
Firesteel + PJCBs -- in a rush and the other two have failed due to wetness, lack of fuel, or age

My "do or die" progression would go (life or death situation, severely compromised manual dexterity and mental acuity):
Flare
Bic (probably not volatile if really cold, but give it a quick go before moving on)
Matches
Firesteel + mulitple PJCBs



So, I'm curious as to why more folks don't carry something like this if you wanted to be prepared to light a fire in any condition? Is it the weight? The Orion flare I have weighs 91.9g/3.2oz, about double the weight of the K&M matchcase with matches and striker in it. I'm a guy who tends to be on the lightweight/UL side of the gear/philosophy spectrum, but I find 3oz acceptable if I feel I'll be somewhere or in some situation where more fire-starting power would be prudent. And as you can see from the picture, it isn't very bulky. Is it the fact that it's pretty much a dedicated emergency item, with no practical use on a normal outing, and overkill for the average Joe out on a day hike?


Let me note three things:

1) In general, starting a fire would not be my first step in a plan of action to combat the immediate or gradual onset of hypothermia. Seeing as a hypothetical bad situation would likely involve a serious injury, or have me stuck somewhere above tree-line, I can neither depend on thermoregulation through fire-making, nor would I prefer it unless it was the only option left to me. If at all possible, I'll opt to put on appropriate insulating layers for the conditions and get in an emergency shelter that conserves body heat. Perhaps it's different when you've just fallen in a river in Alaska in the dead of winter, where only a roaring fire will save your life? I have no experience there, but I'd imagine the flare would be even more relevant in that scenario.

2) While trying to stay warm, I'm hoping for rescue because I've a) called or signaled for help if possible, b) activated a PLB or similar locating device (I'm still looking to purchase a good one this year), c) left my plans with people who will initiate a search when I don't check-in.

3) I don't carry the flare all the time. A walk in the local park, nah. An all day outing with more risk (out of reception, less-traveled area, off-trail), yes, but it's lower on the list than appropriate clothing for the conditions and an easily employed shelter. If I lived in the frigid north or PNW, I'd carry one more often than I do here, in relatively mild CA.



I'm just thinking that as far as keeping my options open goes, with regards to thermoregulation through fire, I'd much rather use a signal flare to get a fire going in a truly crappy situation than dick around with other seemingly less surefire methods. Thoughts?

ETA:
I guess safety of storing a flare could also be another concern?
 
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Flares and other pyrotechnical devices will start a fire in bad weather, no doubt about it. They also make thermite fire starters that work equally well. I hear those are quite popular in snowmobile circles. The problem is pyrotechnics are a one shot deal, and can be difficult to light with their high ignition temps. You have to get it right the first time and hope the fuse is working when you need it. If it lights and you gather kindling you will have fire. If you are out in the cold with a vehicle I would imagine a blowtorch or jet stove would be preferable to both. :)
[video=youtube;VuutDZzNxjA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuutDZzNxjA[/video]
[video=youtube;sA2NfR_RQBI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA2NfR_RQBI[/video]

Fire in general has some limitations you need to be aware of. The fire must always be fed and you can not take it with you. The fire will help you dry out and get warm but it will not get you out of the situation. For this reason if the choice is between fire and adequate clothing I choose the clothing every time. If you are carrying one then it makes sense to know that a flare will do double duty as a very effective fire starter and bear repellent, but it's a back up device and mainly for signaling. If I need a dedicated get the fire going device for winter camping I would opt for something else. During normal situations my emergency starters of choice are those esbit tablets and candles.
 
Yes, the method is dependent on having the strike/pull-cord ignition work in the first place, but in my mind, the other tools face the same problem. I'd bet that unless you have a particularly old flare or something, it should light up just fine, especially the strike-cap sort. But, of course, if it didn't work within a reasonable amount of time, I'd be hurrying along to try the next thing in the progression. I'd hope I wouldn't fixate on trying to get a defunct flare to work when freezing, and have enough presence of mind to realize my time is short and I should move along when it doesn't seem likely to ignite.

And yes, haha, I'd agree: when out with a vehicle, a low-temp friendly propane torch is the way to go :) :thumbup: I carry a Pocket Rocket with 8oz full canister of IsoPro in the vehicle at all times, but if I were driving somewhere where getting stuck in the cold is a possibility, I'd make sure to have propane and a torch head or my stove along.

You are correct about the limitations of fire, and part of the reason I would choose insulating clothing + rain gear + portable easily erected shelter. The mobility is a good point I neglected to specifically mention, primarily I because my thought was towards the most likely worst-case scenario for me: injured and immobile. I may be capable enough of hobbling around and collecting stuff in the immediate vicinity for a one-time death-averting warming fire, which I could hopefully sustain if I knew I'd be stuck for a while, but I wouldn't want to depend on that or the ability to self-evacuate. If you were still in dire straits after the one fire had warmed and dried you and your clothing, whether the fault is your own decision-making to that point or just bad luck, I imagine in most cases you're going to need to be evacuated or otherwise rescued. Bad situations are going to be situational, so it's impossible to try and account for all possibilities; for the scope of this thread, I was only focusing on that initial fire-starting step that everyone seems to talk about.

The first vid is pretty cool, though obviously not nearly as simple to get going, nor as long lasting, as a flare (but thermite is indeed a beast). As the second vid shows, you also have a built-in striker that eliminates having to provide hot enough ignition to ignite pyrotechnic stuff through other means, let alone depending on your motor skills and a lack of wind. If one is willing to trust to storm matches and a striker, I can see no reason why a flare would be much different aside from the fact that it's a quantity of 1 (though it will last longer than all the matches you're carrying and probably burn more intensely throughout). The flare has the added advantage in that, as shown in the second vid, you can move it around during its long burn time to get things going faster. The second video highlights something nicely too: this is a nice pile the guy had already gathered and constructed, he ignited the flare in a second, and look at how long it takes him to get the fire towards self-sustaining in those conditions. I'd bet it's not even providing significant warmth by the end of the video. I can only imagine having to bring about the same end result with a matches, a lighter, or a firesteel, if my life were truly depending on the next few minutes....

What would you choose for a winter "get the fire going" device? In the frame of something you'd be willing to carry with you on a day hike and are likely to have on you when it's needed the most. If I were actually camping, as you rightly said, a stove or blowtorch would be the route I'd choose. :thumbup:

ETA:
Funny you should mention the bear repellant thing. I was going to mention the same but decided to limit the OP to the "practical" uses. But yeah, I'd imagine that if you were able to get the flare out and struck in time, sticking it in a predatory or aggressive bear's face or eyes would probably go a long way towards lessening or preventing the mauling you'd be subject to. Obviously, this is in the somehow last resort situation where you don't have spray or an appropriate weapon.
 
HikingMano said:
[...]
My "do or die" progression would go (life or death situation, severely compromised manual dexterity and mental acuity):
Flare
Bic (probably not volatile if really cold, but give it a quick go before moving on)
Matches
Firesteel + mulitple PJCBs
Click to expand...

I'd like to revise this, after further thought. In a "real situation", seconds would probably count, so I'd probably just skip the bic and go directly to the storm-matches to avoid wasting valuable time. The flame provided by the storm-proof matches will be hotter than the bic flame anyway.

I'd also like to add that I guess I'm viewing the flare as simply a bigger & better storm-match, to be applied in the same situations, but with more probability of success. Both are water-resistant, require minimal dexterity, self-ignite with a striker, rely on solid fuel unaffected by temperature, and burn hot enough to get wet stuff to burn. The flare exceeds the match in ease of use with limited dexterity, burn time, and (my guess, without any real knowledge) heat-output. The only downside is that for the weight of one flare you could carry relatively many matches to start fires at different times...but it's not like I'd choose to only carry a flare to the exclusion of the others, and I'd hope not to put myself in the situation of needing to "light a fire immediately or die" more than once.
 
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Do flares soak up humidity, or work once they have been dunked in water?
I keep some road flares in my car, for car emergencies, and they have a paper wrap around them. I suspect they would get wet and not work, I haven't tested it though.
 
The one I have is waxed or something like it, and claimed to be waterproof, while I've struck and used one, I haven't done anything like soak it in a bucket before lighting (which yes, in retrospect, I should have). I have a couple of spares; I could do a dunk and light test later. Bit of a costly test, but worth knowing the answer definitively :thumbup:.

ETA: I keep mine in a ziploc just in case, and I can't imagine handling with wet hands or in rain would alone cause it to fail.
 
A ziplock should keep it dry, as well as the wax, or whatever it's coated with. Still would be a good thing to know, I say submerge it for at least an hour. What if your pack fell in a river, and you didn't get to it for a while? And then, everything around it was wet, and the Ziplock just wasn't closed all the way? Just thinking about the worst case scenario. Maybe a water proof tube would be the next level of security for the flare?
 
A flare sewn into his survival jacket saved my buddy's life when his raft overturned on the upper Skeena River a couple of decades ago. He made it to shore and was able to light a fire using the emergency-only flare. That, and his SAK (amazing how much wood you can saw with that little sawblade, he said later).
 
An hour soak should be a good test indeed. I'm not wholly confident it'd light up after that without an added layer of protection. I may decide to submerge as i'd have it stored realistically (in used ziploc or aloksak). We'll see :thumbup:

I actually tried looking for an appropriately sized waterproof container when I first got them, but could not find anything light , just the right size, and waterproof. I had one in a small otterbox at one point, but I've long since stopped using such heavy containers. Maybe going back to a small otterbox for firestarting stuff is worth reconsideration. Sure they weigh more, but they're durable, simple, and effective... And my other gear is light enough as it is, so it may not be a huge sacrifice.
 
Ed, did your friend think he could have made it without the SAK and prepping wood (other thank picking up stuff and piling it)?
 
Hey......................A couple of turns of Cling Film before bagging should do the job. I think Cling Film is great for a precautionary wrap you might want to rip open with your teeth.
 
True, good tip, thanks :thumbup: And yeah, the ripping open with teeth is spot on in that sort of situation.
 
HikingMano said:
Yes, the method is dependent on having the strike/pull-cord ignition work in the first place, but in my mind, the other tools face the same problem. I'd bet that unless you have a particularly old flare or something, it should light up just fine, especially the strike-cap sort. But, of course, if it didn't work within a reasonable amount of time, I'd be hurrying along to try the next thing in the progression. I'd hope I wouldn't fixate on trying to get a defunct flare to work when freezing, and have enough presence of mind to realize my time is short and I should move along when it doesn't seem likely to ignite.

And yes, haha, I'd agree: when out with a vehicle, a low-temp friendly propane torch is the way to go :) :thumbup: I carry a Pocket Rocket with 8oz full canister of IsoPro in the vehicle at all times, but if I were driving somewhere where getting stuck in the cold is a possibility, I'd make sure to have propane and a torch head or my stove along.

1) You are correct about the limitations of fire, and part of the reason I would choose insulating clothing + rain gear + portable easily erected shelter. The mobility is a good point I neglected to specifically mention, primarily I because my thought was towards the most likely worst-case scenario for me: injured and immobile. I may be capable enough of hobbling around and collecting stuff in the immediate vicinity for a one-time death-averting warming fire, which I could hopefully sustain if I knew I'd be stuck for a while, but I wouldn't want to depend on that or the ability to self-evacuate. If you were still in dire straits after the one fire had warmed and dried you and your clothing, whether the fault is your own decision-making to that point or just bad luck, I imagine in most cases you're going to need to be evacuated or otherwise rescued. Bad situations are going to be situational, so it's impossible to try and account for all possibilities; for the scope of this thread, I was only focusing on that initial fire-starting step that everyone seems to talk about.

3) The first vid is pretty cool, though obviously not nearly as simple to get going, nor as long lasting, as a flare (but thermite is indeed a beast). As the second vid shows, you also have a built-in striker that eliminates having to provide hot enough ignition to ignite pyrotechnic stuff through other means, let alone depending on your motor skills and a lack of wind. If one is willing to trust to storm matches and a striker, I can see no reason why a flare would be much different aside from the fact that it's a quantity of 1 (though it will last longer than all the matches you're carrying and probably burn more intensely throughout). The flare has the added advantage in that, as shown in the second vid, you can move it around during its long burn time to get things going faster. The second video highlights something nicely too: this is a nice pile the guy had already gathered and constructed, he ignited the flare in a second, and look at how long it takes him to get the fire towards self-sustaining in those conditions. I'd bet it's not even providing significant warmth by the end of the video. I can only imagine having to bring about the same end result with a matches, a lighter, or a firesteel, if my life were truly depending on the next few minutes....

2) What would you choose for a winter "get the fire going" device? In the frame of something you'd be willing to carry with you on a day hike and are likely to have on you when it's needed the most. If I were actually camping, as you rightly said, a stove or blowtorch would be the route I'd choose. :thumbup:

ETA:
Funny you should mention the bear repellant thing. I was going to mention the same but decided to limit the OP to the "practical" uses. But yeah, I'd imagine that if you were able to get the flare out and struck in time, sticking it in a predatory or aggressive bear's face or eyes would probably go a long way towards lessening or preventing the mauling you'd be subject to. Obviously, this is in the somehow last resort situation where you don't have spray or an appropriate weapon.
Click to expand...

1) So my worst case scenario is a bit different to yours. Even with a few busted bones my body will still be able to thermoregulate pretty well. Blood loss on a large scale would of course cool my body down but fire would not help me there, a bandage would.  I am not so worried about getting injured out there, I am more worried about getting wet. If I go out on the ice in the winter there is always the chance of falling through and getting soaked. Getting warm becomes a very pressing issue. Also the winters here can get pretty brutal, I think the lowest overnight temperature was -38C this winter where I live. The coldest I have camped out is about -20C and it was with a group in canvas tents heated with wood stoves.

2) So considering that my needs are a bit different to yours what would I choose as a “get the fire going” device. I gave it some thought over the course of the day and it is a hard call. I suppose the flare would work as well as anything else for creating an open fire short of a blowtorch. Thermite is also excellent. Grill starter fluid, outdoor paraffin candles with large wicks, and solid fuels like trioxane will get the job done as well but require a bit of prep time. Kerosene from a hurricane lantern is not recommended because of its extreme flammability. If for some reason anyone reading this has to use it, do not put more than you can fit into the cork of a soda bottle at a time and keep the canister well away (3-5 meters) from the fire. Ask me how I know. :D

Anyway for my reality an open fire is inadequate, if it is –20C I could probably not get dry fast enough around an open fire to survive. So a change of clothes in a drybag would give me time to get the fire started, I could then dry out the main set of clothes at my leisure around the open flame. A warm sleeping bag would also work as long as it is made of a synthetic material. A better system would be to bring some friends, a large canvas tent (flame resistant) and a wood stove that fits inside the tent. It is not minimalist but it is what you need for being out in the cold for a prolonged period. Many people sharing a tent is great because it means you can spend more time sleeping instead of watching the fire. The fire needs to be stoked all night long after all. If the goal is to light a wood stove, then extreme methods are out of the question because they would melt the metal. For getting the fire going inside a stove I recommend solid fuels like wet fire, trioxane or esbit. Trioxane burns the hottest, but also the fastest. Here is a comparison of the three. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3Hs9TS49TE

Here is a guy who created an ultralight system for stove camping.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5962rzV6Ks

3) About the video with the thermite powder, you can also get hockey puck sized bricks of thermite with a built in fuse. They are marketed as “thermite fire starters” and can be found via google from pyrotechnics suppliers. You might also be able to get them from welding suppliers. No muss, no fuss, just like a flare.

*As a side note having an ice axe or some of those ice picks “naskalit” you wear around your neck can be a very good thing to have when you need to climb back out of the whole in the ice.
 
1) It's not the injury per se, as the exposure as a result of not being able to get out or seek "real" shelter. I want to keep cold water off me, block cold wind from zapping my heat, and prevent the ground from leaching heat away from me. My goal is to prevent the fatal loss of body heat through conductive or convective cooling, and I suspect your goal is the same. I have no real experience in that low temps, the lowest I've been was -15C, but day outing (must have been much colder at night would be my guess), not camping. Still provokes thought for me because the situation I'm thinking about involves a day outing gone bad or getting separated from your camping gear. So it's great to have input from folks like you :thumbup:

2) There's an interesting story there... Do tell! :D

Anyway, so yeah, I think we agree that it comes back to adequate clothing and insulation for the conditions, with a fire being secondary or tertiary even. :thumbup: The ideal is to have the hardcore cold-weather camping gear and friends with you, but for solo day outings in your case, it's a spare set of clothes in a dry bag and big&heavy synthetic/dwrDown bag, plus any of the other extreme firestarters you mentioned, correct? I guess for the sake of this discussion, yeah, we're thinking open fires and not lighting a stove. I'm thinking of the situation that caught you by surprise (whether a result of your decisions or not), not the situation when you're expecting to be out for a while camping in real cold weather and have carried all the appropriate gear. Side note: if I were out alone in real cold and didn't want to carry a full size sleeping bag appropriate for the temp, I'd probably carry a Blizzard Bag in addition to clothing and worn insulation.

3) Excellent, that'd work better I'd imagine. I'm guessing it still has a short burn time though, and you can't handle it once lit to nurse your fire into life? You're depending on the high intensity of the heat output to get your fire going.


Naskalit - very cool, learn something new every day! Thanks! :thumbup:
 
“I want to keep cold water off me, block cold wind from zapping my heat, and prevent the ground from leaching heat away from me. My goal is to prevent the fatal loss of body heat through conductive or convective cooling, and I suspect your goal is the same.”

Yeah, that is the goal. I guess the best way to look at the flare is as a part of a cold weather system. You mentioned combining the fire with heatsheet in the OP. That works but is still not as efficient as an enclosed system.
Louelaa.jpg

The systems approach is kind of why I wandered into stove territory because that is a system that works in my climate. I wonder how an open fire and heatsheet system compares to an enclosed bothy bag, sitting pad and candle system. I seem to recall that you could heat an igloo with a candle so why not a bothy. I must do some testing. :)

“The ideal is to have the hardcore cold-weather camping gear and friends with you, but for solo day outings in your case, it's a spare set of clothes in a dry bag and big&heavy synthetic/dwrDown bag, plus any of the other extreme firestarters you mentioned, correct?”

Pretty much yeah. I do not necessarily bring both the sleeping bag and the spare set of
clothing but one or the other is always with me when I am away from immediate resupply, and either one works as a stand alone system. Sometimes I have to lend them out to friends and family with less foresight. If things get bulky I can pack it on a sled (“ahkio”). Until now I have mostly used esbit type tablets as my emergency fire starter.

Yeah those termite starters are a light and forget solution. Here is a 3oz thermite fire starter lighting green pine needles on fire. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sG58valU8AQ

Either one would get the job done and weight about the same. I guess people do not carry them because they do not think about these things. I am going to get a few flares next time I head out into the sticks and do some testing for myself. Thanks for creating this thread and giving me that push. :)

So the story with the kerosene…

I was out in the sticks on a one week island hopping training course. The weather was this lovely mixture of freezing rain, damp sea air, and ocean breeze. We were highly motivated to get the fire going, but turns out nobody had anything besides wet twigs and a few matches. Lucky for us there was a storm lantern in the kit bag and a bunch of fuel for it. Being young and dumb we decided to throw caution to the wind and get that fire going…. It resulted in a meter long fireball in the tent, and little bits of burning kerosene here and there. No damage done, besides a few singed arm hairs and wounded pride. Luckily the stove contained most of the blast and the cold damp ground was no easy to light on fire. We had to hustle to put the fire out though and were very lucky we poured using the cup of the kerosene container instead of the container itself since the cup also caught fire. :D
 
Just so happens I have a bothy and plan to do some testing of my own soon ;) :thumbup: My only concern with the candle in an enclosed shelter is shelter flammability and the need for vigilant venting to prevent CO asphyxiation. I want to get the bothy+ground insulation+insulating clothing to work for me without external heating for the temps I'd commonly experience. We'll see how it goes. I have no doubt though that external heat used in conjunction with an enclosed shelter would work much better than an open shelter subject to wind and the loss of warmed air. I think you should look into tje "Blizzard Bag" as well. You'd probably lose the candle (beeswax I'd presume) warming option, but it seems a good light and compact solution to combat the onset of hypothermia. If I was in your area, I honestly would probably carry both the bothy and blizzard bag. Use of a candle for added warming would then be situation and awareness dependent: can I stay conscious and aware enough to keep my shelter from catching fire around/on me and can I ensure adequate ventilation to prevent insidious CO asphyxiation?


Re: kerosene story. Lucky, there's a lesson learned! :thumbup:

Good stuff, thanks for the thoughtful input all :thumbup:
 
This is my above and beyond kit that I add to my normal carry when weather makes building a fire a life saving need
Small orion flare mini bic, waterproof matches. small Ferrocerium rod with striker, small glass magnifying lens, and a high quality pencel sharpener for making quick shavings charcloth, jute twine, cotton balls , waxed jute, sealed straws one filled with viseline the other with fire paste. several assorted fire starters
I tried to fill all space in the box with something that burns


 
That'll do it. So I guess I'm not the only one :thumbup:

That reminds me, Jute is my other preferred prepared tinder. I've been wanting to try some WetFire for a long time too.
 
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