Why not 154-CM on customs?

E__WOK

E__WOK

Joined
Aug 8, 1999
Messages
406
If 154-CM is better than ATS-34, why doesn't Emerson use it for his customs?

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Check out my pics


[This message has been edited by E__WOK (edited 04-28-2000).]
 
I would have to dig through my old magazines, but I thought I read, sometimte in the last 6 months I think, that he was using 154CM now, but my memory could be wrong.

-Scott
 
Scott is correct. They are using it.

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"This is the law:
There is no possible victory in defense, The Sword is more important than the shield, And skill is more important than either, The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental."

 
ATS-34 and 154CM are basically brothers. There is some molecular difference, but not much.

The reason you are seeing more makers going to 154CM is because the company that makes ATS-34 is ceasing production.

Now if you are really concerned about blade steel for a folder, demand BG-42. Made in a vacum (so you dont have all the garbage normally found in ATS-34), the cryogenically treat it (-162 degree nitrogen quench), now you are talking performance. This coupled with an increased Vandium content (provides toughness for the blade). Now you have a superior steel.

However, don't look for factories to use this. As it costs a little more, the heat treat is much more demanding and they are not going to take the extra step to cryo-treat it.

As we all know, the bottom line is always the main drive at the factories. Quite frankly, that is how it should be.



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Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

"Nobody throws me my own guns and tells me to run, nobody!
 
So Hitachi is going to completely cease production of ATS-34? Wow.
With regard to Emerson Production Knives another reason Ernie likes 154 is because it is American made. He mentioned this in an article last year. He also stated in the same article that the cost involved in oredering BG stock was too high. Also he felt taht BG-42's performance over that of CM-154 is not so drastic that the average buyer really cares that much.
Personally I like CPM 440V. So much so that my next crazy design is going to be utilizing this steel.
biggrin.gif


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Usual Suspect
 
Ark,

Knife makers "frugalty" is ledgendary.

BG-42, does cost a little more, and at this point you do have to buy a production run.

However, for a factory set up, such as Emerson has, this would not be a problem.

However, the special heat treating (generally over 2000 degrees, which can be compensated for) surpasses many small commercial ovens.

Also, the cryo treatment adds an additional step (read cost)to the treatment of the blade.

For you golfers out there, have some of your golf balls cryogenically treated and take them out and play a round. Tell me you don't notice a difference in distance.

Maker's who argue against BG-42 and it's cryogenic treatment probably have alterior motives as to why they don't want to use the new steels.

The increased Chromium and Vanadium alone are worth the investment. Couple this with increase of 30% blade toughness because of the cryo treatment. Makes you wonder why the
#1 Hard Use Knife doesnt use this steel.



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Les Robertson
www.robertsoncustomcutlery.com

"Nobody throws me my own guns and tells me to run, nobody!
 
Hello all,

Let me straighten out some of the misinformation being spread about steels in use by ourselves and most other factories.

1) Hitachi Metals is not ceasing to produce ATS-34. In fact, they are in the process of trying to improve their manufacturing operations so that they mat provide a cleaner melt and finer end product. ATS is not garbage and is one of the best steels available.

2) We use 154CM because Crucible Steel approached us 2 1/2 years ago with the proposition of producing 154CM in usable sizes (sheets) and wanted to know if knife companies were still interested in their steel.

We consulted with Microtech who were already starting to use 154. They were extremely pleased with Crucibles processes, delivery, and product. The steel had a proven battle record for blades and I had used it almost 20 years earlier on my custom blades.

154CM is the parent steel of ATS-34 and is U.S. made. We are extremely pleased with 154CM and have never had any complaints about the performance of our steel.

We produce tens of thousands knives per year and have well over one hundred thousand out in the hands of users. Bear in mind that these really are hard use customers and we are completely satisfied with the performance of 154CM.

It is heat treated per my specs and use a double temper and -120 cryogenic treatment. This can be varified through our heat treater whose number I will gladly provide to anyone who so desires.

3) Latrobe BG-42 is a good steel, even a great steel. The heat treating is not exotic and any commercial heat treater can heat to specs required including the -120 treatment which is the standard cryo figure.

Unfortunately, Latrobe Steel provides BG-42 for bearing applications and not specifically for knifemaking applications. This is handled by their specialty steels division. They produce the steel in bar stock and in small runs of such. Bar stock will not work for major manufacturing processes. Most companies use lasers like ours that require sheet stock material.

Yes, Latrobe will do a run for a certain quantity and dollar amount. It is not always the price but the ongoing availability of raw material that is the determining factor in choices made by manufacturers.

Our factory is set up on a just in time model and long lead times and guarantees of only small quantities, prohibit the use of this steel.

The Latrobe company does not look at the knife industry as a large enough customer to release mill time to address to address cutlery in the tonnage needed to supply major manufacturers at this time.

Perhaps this will change in the near or distant future. Remember, they make this steel for turbine bearings and almost all of their production goes to that application.

I hope this helps address and clarify some concerns that you all may have.

Sincerely,
Ernest Emerson
Emerson SpecWar Knives
Emerson Knives Inc.


[This message has been edited by Emerson Knives (edited 05-02-2000).]
 
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