Why Pins/Bolts ALL THE WAY THROUGH the scales, if you can just...

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St33L

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Dec 18, 2013
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I'm wondering why pins / Corby bolts need to go all the way through the scales on full tang, fixed blade knives. Convention?

Why not just go through, say, 80% from the inside of the scales?
And, wouldn't that practically be just as strong to secure the scales to the stock steel?

It would give the scales a more uniform appearance since no bolts/pins would show on the outside.
Are there any examples of this?
 
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Lone Fortress said:
I would think hidden pins would be more difficult to do, with no significant advantages.
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Couldn't one drill the holes to length on the inside and cut the pins to length? Still perhaps more or different type of work...

As far as advantages go, I think it would just be a different style. The work that goes into it may be appreciated more, especially if the scale is a beautiful wood design like burls or curls that pins/bolts would disrupt. It would look "simpler" in design.
 
There are quite a few knives that employ hidden pins, as you describe.

If the pins aren't peined to begin with, you would be correct in saying there is no major difference in strength between full through pins and hidden pins. Generally, the pins provide shear strength to the scales while the epoxy provides the bond to prevent pulling away from the tang.

If the goal is to eliminate pins from detracting from a beautiful handle, this is a good way to do it. And it's not really all that difficult, it just a little more thought and planning.
 
J. Doyle said:
There are quite a few knives that employ hidden pins, as you describe.

If the pins aren't peined to begin with, you would be correct in saying there is no major difference in strength between full through pins and hidden pins. Generally, the pins provide shear strength to the scales while the epoxy provides the bond to prevent pulling away from the tang.

If the goal is to eliminate pins from detracting from a beautiful handle, this is a good way to do it. And it's not really all that difficult, it just a little more thought and planning.
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Ah, so it already exists. I just have to search harder for "hidden pins". Thanks!
 
I prefer loveless because if the epoxy does fail, the mechanical fastener of the loveless won't. With hidden pins like has been said above the provide sheer strength not bond. Epoxy has come a long way and g flex is amazing but I prefer a mechanical bond over a chemical one
 
Tin.Man said:
I prefer loveless because if the epoxy does fail, the mechanical fastener of the loveless won't. With hidden pins like has been said above the provide sheer strength not bond. Epoxy has come a long way and g flex is amazing but I prefer a mechanical bond over a chemical one
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Aren't there "anchor" pins that will physically wedge into the scale?

Or, why not use shorter Corby or Loveless bolts cut to length to mechanically secure the tang with the scale?
 
I guess the question is, do hidden Corby bolt knife handles exist? I understand that the bolt ends with a wider diameter sandwiches the scales onto the tang (the hole of which has a smaller diameter) as the bolt gets screwed in, so probably not... unless there is dense "filler" added... so anchored pins may be better... or go overboard with the pins and add many, many pins without a care for how it will look since it's only on the inside.
 
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Funny you mentioned hidden pins. I just finished this little number. While thinking of the design, I thought I would use hidden pins, just for something different. Just don't drill all the way through, and cut the pins shorter than the width of the two scales and tang. Just make sure you cut them short enough so you don't sand into them during final handle finishing! W2 steel from Aldo....ground super thin.....will be available for sale soon!085.jpg
 
I like hidden pins. I make mine from stainless steel screws w/the heads cut off. I tap the tang, thread in the pins and use a lot of "epoxy rivets" as well. Works for me. Pretty easy to do too.
 
For those with a drill press you can set the depth limiter to whatever you want and drill holes to the exact depth with no effort.

I think you could do this with corby bolts but it would be more effort for what I think would be little gain over regular pins, if any. Drill the tang and the scales like you normally would. The hole in the tang needs to be smaller than the whole in the scales so once the holes are established by drilling through the tang bore them out in the scales to the size you want (at least the diameter of the head on the bolt). Screw the corby bolts to the tang glue and press scales. In the end I think you'd find its a lot of money for a hidden pin.

Happy Knife Making!
 
PaMtnBkr said:
I like hidden pins. I make mine from stainless steel screws w/the heads cut off. I tap the tang, thread in the pins and use a lot of "epoxy rivets" as well. Works for me. Pretty easy to do too.
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This sounds like a great way to do it. I would think having the holes in the scales the outter diameter of the threads would leave all the thread area for the epoxy to really key in to. Should make for a strong bond.
 
Seems like just drilling some shallow holes in the scales and holes thru the tang would give you sufficient sheer strength. I mean... we've been putting pins in scales since before epoxy existed, right?
 
Corby bolts have a classic pinned look while securing the scales so that they never come off. I do not think pins detract from a beautiful piece of wood so much as they enhance the look. I don't use Corbys much except when the knife is going to be used hard and then I suggest micarta on stainless steel blades as well. I like the suggestion of PaMtnBkr of using stainless threads in pocket holes for hidden pins. I have used this method on large chopping camp knives. It is always fun to try something a bit different.
 
In a decorative knife, hidden pins ...or even just epoxy....will probably be sufficient.
On a hard use knife, especially one that will be washed and dried in hot water constantly, mechanical fasteners. Traditionally, peened pins were used. then Cutlers rivets became the norm. Today, those who want an absolutely secure handle use Corby or Loveless style bolts/rivets. By using such rivets, the epoxy provides tight sealing between the handle and the tang, and the bolt provides unfailing security of the scales. Even if the epoxy fails, the scales are secure.

I am not saying that there is anything wrong with a hidden pin...just that it is only slightly stronger than epoxy alone, and provides little or no protection from the scale lifting if the epoxy joint fails.
There are only a few situations in knifemaking where I can see any need to hide the pins/rivets. Most concern fragile handle material or very decorative use.
 
I have used hidden pins many times (though not as the sole source of attachment too often). For me, I would rather not rely on the epoxy to secure extra area around the pins in their holes. Rather, I like the hidden pins to be a perfect press fit so that there is absolutely no movement in the scales and let epoxy take care of the rest of the area. I remember more than a few times, during the build of a knife where just 4 or 6, 1/16" hidden dowel pins had the handles pinned so tight and secure that it was quite difficult to get the scales back off for the final assembly with epoxy.

Another thought too: I think many would be surprised at how much shear strength even a couple of 1/16" pins can add. With modern, QUALITY epoxy and proper surface prep AND a couple hidden pins, I can't imagine doing anything to that knife that would cause the scales to pop off. You would definitely be WAY outside, not only the ballpark of acceptable knife use, but outside the city, state, country, planet, solar system and galaxy of proper knife use. :D

The point is, if you got scales to pop off with the described methods, you're doing something you shouldn't be doing with a knife.

Edited to add that a large knife used for HEAVY chopping *might* be the exception to the rule. But that opens up a whole new discussion as I would much rather do sustained heavy chopping with an axe or hatchet. :)
 
I agree with you that hidden pins add all the shear strength needed for normal use. The problem is that in kitchen, camp, fishing use two things occur that hidden pins can't handle. One is flex. there is a lot more lateral stress on the handle and blade in such use. This is partly because these knives have thinner blades and handle scales.This applies pressure on the handle scales at the ricasso, causing them to "pop" the epoxy bond. Flex type epoxy helps a lot, The second thing is water. Stabilized, rosewood, whatever, water will somehow get into the wood and places where it can break down the epoxy bond. I have seen many knives that had 3-4-5 through pins ( not peened0 that lifted the scales right up the pins, leaving a 1/16" gap. Since I went to Corbys, I have never had a handle fail.
 
I'm using hidden pins on these because I like the clean appearance.

carothers_dagger.jpg~original


I cut threads on the inside of the hole in the scales and I use the next size down all-thread for pin stock and I use Acraglas on everything when I put it all together, so it forms internal threads. And since you can use lots of small pins I think it prevents an end from lifting over time better than just two or three pins.

The one thing you can't do with hidden pins is tension it to put the scale under compression like you can with a peened pin or corby.
 
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