Why super steels

CUTS LIKE A KRIS

CUTS LIKE A KRIS

Joined
Sep 28, 2005
Messages
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I recently called for my last knife purchase for a loooong time (daughter was born) and while compiling my list I decided to get a number of knives with different steels as one of the main deciding factors, which got me thinking "Why do we need the bestest, newest steel for the knives." For me it was just for the opportunity to compare NIB performance as well as see how well they work for the intended purposes. How many of you out there in knife land actually NEED the latest super steel? If not why do you get them- show off? Bragging rights? laziness (sharpening)?


Just so you know what I got:
Benchmade switchback limited ed: S30V & 440
Benchmade 960 red: D2
Benchmade Stiegerwalt 3 blade folder: AUS 8 (& 440 I read)
Spyderco Salt: H1
Spyderco Almite R2: VG-10
Spyderco Centofante 4: VG-10
Buck Crosslock Red: ?420?
Queen Canoe: D-2

Another reason I chose most of the knives os for colored handles- why be boring with my last purchase in many years!
If anybody has comments on the knives as well- feel free to let me know.:D
 
I used to be all about the newest super steel and had to buy a knife based on that. I have found that it doesn't really matter though. I have used W-2 tool steel that is better than S-30V. I have had D-2 that was amazing. I also find that some of the newer steels take longer to sharpen even though they do hold an edge longer. I like to sharpen my knives though so I don't care about that. My favorite steel is still 440C. For me it has all the atributes I look for in a steel.
 
I'm of the opinion that hype as much a part of the knife business as steel. Using the latest greatest super steel is part of the advertising to convince us we all need the new stuff. It would be really interesting to do a blind test of various steels and see if anyone really noticed a significant advantage of on over another.
 
Are you saying we should DIGRESS to slip joint and 420j?

In an expanding market with growing dynamic people should we have more choices?

There are great steels and some not so great and as time goes by the consumer will chose what stays.

If everyone at bladeforums for instance decided to never buy a knife with 440c, it would probably drift off the shelves. We probably buy most of the knives besides kitchen knives of any other group.

I love great edge retention and ease of sharpening that is tough to get both in one steel, or it used to be.
I love the exploration of new technology. Every once in a while everything gels and we get a company like Spyderco who listens to the market and challenges us as well.

VG10 is awesome
ATS34 is awesome
S30v is awesome
 
Not to DIGRESS too far from the topic;)...I wonder what people who use their knives everyday think about the steels

I EDC a CQC-7 and like the 154CM. Keeps a nice edge, not too hard to sharpen, yada, yada....
 
Loki said:
It would be really interesting to do a blind test of various steels and see if anyone really noticed a significant advantage of on over another.
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I have done that, Ray Kirk sent me four blades out of different steels which were unmarked. It is pretty easy to tell apart something like D2 vs L6, they don't act even remotely similar either on a stone or in use. In general most of the "super steels" are mainly high wear steels and that class of steel has been around for an extremely long time.

-Cliff
 
I carry an S30V Native but in all honesty I would probably still carry it if it were in AUS-8. I like the size and the ergos. Sometimes I think I'd trade a little edge holding for a little toughness. Maybe a NativeIII would be the ticket. YMMV

Frank
 
I like wonder steels, I'll admit it. But I'm more about not getting a crappy steel than really worrying about getting the latest super steel. I would be fine if all my knives were 440C (with a proper heat treat), I love Bark River's 12C27.

I won't choose a knife because it has an S30V blade, I'll choose it because I like the overall design AND it has a good steel.

I'll be the first to admit that a few years ago I wouldn't have known the difference between 420J and 154CM performance, but once you start getting used to better performance, it's only natural to try to get knives with premium steel.

Occasionaly I'll overlook steel if I really like a knife, not with a fixed blade. For example I bought a couple of Case slipjoints with "mistery" stainless steel and I like them, although I'm considering Schatt and Morgan 154CM slippies for better edge holding. I'm also a great SAK fan, but they are never my main knife.
 
I EDC a BM710 in 154cm. I like it for its edge retention, and being my beater knife I don't have to worry too much about it. I also EDC a Vic Soldier in who the hell knows what steel (420 or a close cousin). It holds a great edge, sharpens up nicely and does the job I need it to do.

I carry slipjoints in carbon frequently and do just fine with them. In fact, I spent an hour or so today whittling away a stick with a Buck 301, and that's 420HC which is a good steel in my book.

Steel choice isn't as important as heat treat. Well treated 420 will out perform poorly treated S30V, ZDP-189 or whatever the trendy steel is.

My favorite steel by far is 1095, followed by VG-10, 154cm and 440c. For some reason, S30V just doesn't do it for me. It's a nice steel and I like the two knives I own in S30V (Native and Cabela's Buck 110), but I prefer others for my uses.
 
I like the newer steels. Since they do hold the edges longer, you have to sharpen less, and wear the blades down MUCH more slowly. I don't know about some of the more exotic stuff out there, but the D2 and ATS34 I have is pretty long lasting compared to the softer old timey steels. I have one S30V blade, but I haven't really put it to much use yet, just on three rabbits last years hunting season. It cut, it didn't rust, it's still sharp. Can't say whether or not it'll last though! I'd bet it will though. :thumbup:
 
The whole thing is a slow process of trying to improve upon certain traits... High carbon steels like A2 have been around for ages (over a century in many cases) and perform wonderfully, but have one weakness - they corrode easily. Sometimes this can be worked around with maintenance like cleaning and protecting, but in some circumstances this isn't enough (protective coatings aren't always intact no matter how well they're maintained, and when you work with food, your options there are severely limited.)

Most of the "supersteels" are therefore in the realm of stainless, where the constant endeavor is to not only keep corrosion to a minimum, but to keep the other traits intact. Earlier stainless steels either weren't very corrosion resistant or showed significantly reduced hardness, durability, etc. as a tradeoff for their corrosion resistance. The whole point of steels like S30v is to get that all-important corrosion resistance without sacrificing everything else. Depending on your purposes, you can quite easily fall back to high-carbon steels like A2 and get even better performance (note that Chris Reeve uses A2 for most of his hard use knives while otherwise banking on S30v.)

Looking back on the more traditional steels, you can usually find a tradeoff somewhere. Some dulled quickly, some weren't as hard, some rusted more easily, etc. The newer steels, while showing similar performance from a "does it cut?" perspective, will almost always pull ahead in some way when you start to compare shortcomings.

Depending on where you want to make your compromises, there are even better supersteels aside from what everyone likes to talk about nowadays, like INFI and S90v, that can offer significantly increased performance but with a drawback (usually along the lines of machinability, which is what makes these steels uncommon in the first place.)

So, the whole point of supersteels is to give you less of an all-around tradeoff in demanding applications, or to give you better choices for which tradeoffs you want to deal with.


As has been touched upon, though, the steel is just one part of the equation. How the knife is designed, the treatment of the blade (S30v is infamous for being fickle and unforgiving with regard to heat treatment) and other factors are also very, very important. All other things being equal, and assuming proper, exact construction, a better steel will equate to a better knife - but there's usually a tradeoff somewhere when the choice of steel is made, and other things are seldom equal.
 
So, say you have the opportunity to have a knife made for you. Like a Lochsa or Mnandi or something. Would you choose to pay a little more to have the blade steel upgraded to S90v over S30v?
 
I know from firsthand experience the really soft seals like aus6 doll out fairly easily. While they sharpened fairly easily. If you use them for work purposes you need to remember sharpen them on a regular or else you have a doll knife to work with. But once you get to steels like vg-10 and certainly s30v for most applications the steel seemed to stay sharp enough long enough you are looking for an excuse to sharpen them before they get to doll. This raisis the question is there really a utility to steels with a much higher where resistance especially when it you really let the steels go until they get dull he will have a tough time getting them sharp again from all I hear. The possible upside being ill stay sharp for practically indefinitely and then you can send them in and let the professionals deal with them. On a side note has anybody ever heard of a premium being charged for sharpening professional sharpening of these super steels.
 
kennyj said:
Most of the "supersteels" are therefore in the realm of stainless, where the constant endeavor is to not only keep corrosion to a minimum, but to keep the other traits intact. Earlier stainless steels either weren't very corrosion resistant or showed significantly reduced hardness, durability, etc. as a tradeoff for their corrosion resistance. The whole point of steels like S30v is to get that all-important corrosion resistance without sacrificing everything else.
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The 440A series of stainless steels have a very high corrosion resistance and can be tempered to 60+ HRC. The only new stainless which is actually ran significantly harder is ZDP-189, most of the others when used by most makers are left at 58/60 HRC. These high wear steels also don't have the corrosion resistance of the 440 series.

Capt. Carl said:
whats the difference between a 440A and a 440c?
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440C has a higher carbon content then 440A, this gives it a higher maximum hardness, a higher wear resistance which gives it greater edge retention for slicing in abrasive materials. It also has less toughness, lower grindability, reduced corrosion resistance and a much more coarse carbide structure which limits push cutting sharpness and edge retention at low angles.

-Cliff
 
chrisaloia said:
In an expanding market with growing dynamic people should we have more choices?
Click to expand...

Do we have?

VG10 is awesome
ATS34 is awesome
S30v is awesome
Click to expand...

But these three are of one type. Carbide rich high carbon. Ypu will find ppl. saying that or the other will take the better edge and vice versa.

To me, besides the price factor, it is no real alternative.

Cliff compared two different types of steel L6 to D2. Do we need that alternatives?

Yes, we do for the different tasks and, of course, for personal preference.

I was rating 154CM over ATS34 just because the name did sound better to me. N690 sounds nice, nicer than VG10, but 440C seems to be a bit old fashioned.

What we should always look for is proper heat treatment. A bad S30V is bader than anything.
 
Blop said:
But these three are of one type. Carbide rich high carbon. Ypu will find ppl. saying that or the other will take the better edge and vice versa.

To me, besides the price factor, it is no real alternative.
Click to expand...

Yes, S30V is just a high wear version of ATS-34 essentially, not really switching class of steel. As compared to something like A2 vs D2 which are very different materials in many respects.

...different types of steel L6 to D2. Do we need that alternatives?
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Many knives sell based on the newest fad steel irregardless of performance. Just look for makers promoting a steel and see how much actual independent and published comparisons they have done vs other steels. Are they really using it because it is better or just because it will sell?

-Cliff
 
Great responses all. Personally I am not a steel snob (I love the AUS 4 Bwana I got for fathers day so far), but then again I like sharpening knives. I understand why there is the want for better steel- nobody is ever satisfied with what they have otherwise we would still be using pieces of flint, chert ect. Most of my experience is with AUS 6&8 so I just wanted to play with a bunch more.
 
And once you finish playing with those you’ll wonder what ZDP-189, CPM M-4, S7, INFI, and other steel types are like.:D
 
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