Why the Swindon?

J

jackknife

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Oct 2, 2004
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Okay, I have to admit I may be ignorant of some fine point of knife manufacture, but I have to ask, why use the Swindon key construction at all? It seems like a loose/loose situation. You can't easily ssnug up a loose blade, it looks like a huge PITA to take apart if you want to take apart the knife to change scales or something, and it looks like it may have been harder to make. Then, from what I understand of the history, Buck, maker of hard working knives, switched from the old Swindon key Schrade's t the more conventional Camillus knives when contracting out the rely 300 series pocket knives of the late 1960's.

So, what are any advantages of using the Swindon key construction of a pocket knife, and did Schrade use it for long?

Where the old Schrade-Waldens the Swindon key?

Carl.
 
My old Walden era 8OT shows no visible pins in the bolsters after 40 years of pocket wear and use, so I'd guess it uses Swindon key construction. Looking at the construction of a 25OT I found (in the street, it appears to have been disassembled by running over it with a few trucks) I'd say that in theory, the pivots should never loosen up, and therefor never need to be tightened. Of course, the difference between theory and practice is that in theory, there is no difference, but in practice, there is. Lateral loading - twisting or prying - will cause conventional pins to slip with less effort, but can easily be repaired. Swindon key construction requires far more force to loosen, but once it happens, it can't be repaired without major work. Since there seem to be millions of people out there with no clue how to use a knife without damaging it, the Swindon construction was probably a bad idea. My 8OT has held up just fine for all these years and has no more play now than when it was new, but I was taught to respect my tools long, long ago.
 
Carl, I would like to hear all the positives also. Here is a photo of the negatives. From the Buck angle anyway. Damaged Swinden blades overtravel on opening and were loose side to side also to a degree. I hope I didn't put these in the good 301 drawer......These were created by heavy pushing or push cutting......wasn't there so don't know what they were cutting......Repair of the Swinden pin knives was tough and expensive for Buck/Schrade contract warranty so the switch occurred to Buck/Camillus thru pin construction And continues to be Bucks own method today...........300

IMG_1631-1.jpg


Some of the Bucks had their brass liners deformed from excessive cutting pressure and twisting.
DSCF11222-1.jpg


Here I will throw in the view of the Swiden constuction sliced thru the middle of the pin, across the bolster.
DSCF11212.jpg
 
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Jack and 300,

Thanks for the answers; I have often wondered the same thing as Carl. This would probably explain the little bit of up and down movement 180 degrees on some of the old Schrades I've had. I thought maybe it was a spring/tang interface thing, but this might be more likely.
 
300Bucks said:
Carl, I would like to hear all the positives also. Here is a photo of the negatives. From the Buck angle anyway. Damaged Swinden blades overtravel on opening and were loose side to side also to a degree. I hope I didn't put these in the good 301 drawer......These were created by heavy pushing or push cutting......wasn't there so don't know what they were cutting......Repair of the Swinden pin knives was tough and expensive for Buck warranty so the switch occurred to Camillus thru pin construction And continues today...........300
Click to expand...

I doubt it. Ten dollars says it was poor batonning technique. The hammer/knife/bolt logo was an even worse idea than Swindon key construction. Putting that on a knife was an open invitation to disaster, especially coupled with a lifetime warranty. People seem to think "lifetime warranty" means "indestructible", and that logo gave plenty of them ideas.
 
I think the Swinden key is a terrible idea. I had a 125OT that loosened up a little, and it drove me NUTS that I couldn't tighten it again (I know, short trip, right?). It's why I really don't prefer Old Timer knives, even though they're made with some of the best steel I've ever used. Sad Christmas...
My old Schrade Walden sailor's knife is not made with a Swinden key, but with the normal pinned bolster construction that most other cutlers use.
 
Speculation on my part...

I would think there were 2 possible justifications for trying it.

The first was the hope that it would be more durable. It's known that peened pivot pins will loosen up under hard use. On paper, the Swinden Key offers the hopes of resisting that. And if/when it loosens, it may be less likely (on paper) to fail entirely since it is so much harder to pull the key through the hole than a peened head.

The second might have been the hopes of lowering initial production cots, possibly by eliminating a "by hand" process of peening.
 
Found this post by member Codger_64 in an old thread, linked below. He provided a link to the patent document for the Swinden Key construction, and I've excerpted a passage from that, below his quote below:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/592127-Key-Hole-Construction-3-questions

Codger_64 said:
Dave Swinden Sr. held the patent on the keyhole construction, #2,977,678 issued April 4th, 1961. Filed in January of 1960, it was in use for some years prior.

http://www.collectors-of-schrades-r.us/patents/002977678.pdf

(...)

Michael
Click to expand...
 
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This definitely helped manufacturing costs. By mass producing the main components, the main labor in assembling the knife requires only one pin to hold everything in place. They also probably saved a small amount in material cost over time, as the bolsters were not solid.

However, as has been mentioned, the knife could never be "tuned up" to tighten anything if it became loose from wear. I have also found that the bolster caps sometimes have a tendency to bend or gap, and there is basically nothing that can be done to fix that, short of full dis-assembly and rework. Most knives of this construction seem to stay fairly snug and in good working order, aside from abuse of the knife. I think the design itself was a success for Schrade, but for knife nuts like us, it left us wanting...
 
Interesting to hear your ideas and findings on this design. I have several old Schrade Swinden Bucks. I carried one for a good while but never subjected it to 'abuse'. Its still going strong. Just to answer a comment above from my Kansas neighbor - the knife, bolt and hammer shield visual design came about from way back in Buck days when Hoyt was hand making and heat treating the blades he made knives with. Most were old files he bought off surplus from the naval ship yards in San Diego, CA after the war. The advertising logo showed a knife being driven into a bolt without breaking, by hitting it with a hammer. Which he did do in public demostrations a few times. The blade being hit with hammer not chopped with. I agree that there are always people that gotta' try what they see......but after taking a couple of loose Schrade/Buck Swindens apart. The damage, however caused, was usually a slightly bent pin and bulging brass liners around the key hole. Before vivasection all the blades had side to side play and overtravel to different degrees. These were purposely selected by me for the investigation, most had well sharpened blades. 300
 
Yup. I knew several of those guys, most of them worked in the oilfield. One guy flat told me he needed to cut some steel cable, had nothing to do it with, then remembered that logo. Ruined his Buck knife, but got the cable cut. He was actually one of the smarter ones I've met. At least he admitted the damage to the knife was his own fault.

By the way, cutting the bolt with the knife works with almost any good blade provided:

1) You use a stovebolt, not a hardened machine bolt.

2) You make sure the knife edge is in the threads, not across them, and perpendicular to the long axis of the bolt.

3) You tap the spine directly over the bolt, and tap it gently until it cuts through. Hit it too hard and you'll damage the blade. Strike between the point of contact and the handle - well, you've dissected them after.
 
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