Will steel frame locks ever replace Ti?

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Hello,

Ive had a number of Ti frame locks. Some have been good and some have been down right garbage. Even the good ones have developed issues over time and have had to get sent in for repair. Ive also had a few steel frame locks and all started out fine and none have developed any of the problems that the Ti frame locks have. The new ZT 0566 is a steel frame lock, I think its the first higher end knife I can remember going that direction. Is this going to be the start of Ti going out of style? I love my Ti Spyderco Military with the steel insert, its the best of both worlds. Spyderco realized it was a problem and added the steel insert, anyone know what changes that made in the return rate for repairs? When will makers start doing it to all frame lock folders. In the end it will save them money with less people having to send knives in for repair. Carbidizing has helped a little but its not perfect. My ZT0561 was awesome but after a few months of edc use its so sticky that Im sending it in, the carbidizing has worn threw down to the Ti.

Have a good one,

Chris
 
The issue I see is two fold. First is weight. Titanium is approx. 45% lighter than steel and depending on the folder design, titanium allows for a more centered balance point. Also ti frame locks require no heat treating to set the lock bar tension.

The second issue may be quality. A quality maker knows how to set the lock engagement surface with the right lock face materials. Most production knives are not hand fit so they rely on CNC processes to make an accurate fit. This is rarely the case. Most production lock bars are over sprung and roughly finished. A good maker will heat treat the lock face. Carbidize the titanium and mirror polish the steel to insure perfect contact at the lock AND the stop pin.

Your right the tool steel insert is a fantastic way to solve a lot of these issues BUT it is incredibly expensive both for machining and fitting. That's why most designs just use the traditional lock.
 
Tough to say. Some people find Ti alluring, so that can sell the product.

Steel is stronger if the dimensions are kept the same, but then it is also heavier. So either you make a steel framelock thinner to keep weight down and sacrifice some ergos, or you make it as thick as you could with Ti and have a brick in your pocket. Ti has the advantage of being 40% lighter and still having good strength and wear characteristics, or else they'd use aluminum instead. Of course there is always the steel liner lock, and there does not seem to be much reported difference in strength between the best regarded versions of either lock. Ti reportedly holds spring tension better in this application also.

If you are going to drill and tap a couple holes in an extra milled out slot at the end of a Ti lockbar, then I don't know if there is a cost or simplicity advantage to the frame lock at that point. Cost could be a major factor between choosing a frame lock or a liner for a new model.

There is also the consideration of corrosion if you have a steel framelock with a beadblast finish, so that restricts your alloy choices and your finishes.
 
The replies above probably dispose of the question, but my Reader's Digest version would be that steel is too heavy at physically comfortable thicknesses and not "cool" enough to generate a lot of market appeal.

If you want a steel framelock, you could try getting one of the first lot Gayle Bradley folders (w/o vented liners) and take the scales off. :)
 
Are you asking about a knife with Ti scales or a knife with the actual locking mechanism made from Ti. Ti cannot be hardened like steel and will not wear as well. A number of handgun manufacturers are using Ti for the gun's frame but the actual lockwork is still hardened steel.
 
drail said:
Are you asking about a knife with Ti scales or a knife with the actual locking mechanism made from Ti. Ti cannot be hardened like steel and will not wear as well. A number of handgun manufacturers are using Ti for the gun's frame but the actual lockwork is still hardened steel.
Click to expand...

maybe a bit off topic but if ti isnt as strong as steel and does not wear as well what does that mean that frame lock ti folders
have a flaw or at least a limited life ??? how long would a frame lock last on a zt 561 or a zt 300 this is one reason i have held off and not made the purchase on either of these knives
 
Carbidizing the lock face solves most of the wear problems.
 
No. Steel is to heavy for this. Ti is where its at as long as you by quality.
 
I prefer steel. It is dramatically cheaper (materials wise), easier to finish, and can be polished. Titanium is a great material, but it wears much quicker than steel (hence the rising popularity of steel inserts), and it is far too soft for my tastes. The issue I have with titanium is that the most popular finish is bead blasted (or a variation of it), and with titanium being so soft it shows scratches like nothing else. Steel does also scratch, but it measures higher on the hardness so it is harder to scratch. Nothing makes a bigger eyesore than a blasted titanium handle scratched to hell.

Edit: I can't see how you guys are making a big fuss over weight. An ounce or two for a whole knife will make virtually no difference in use. Sure, you can feel the weight, but it bears no weight (ha, see what I did there?) in the debate.
 
I believe the future is in steel inserts, or something like the Kershaw Sub-Frame Lock.
 
The only issues I've EVER have had with folding knives, have been with titanium framelocks. I'm talking from Strider to just recently my beloved Hinderer. Custom makers and companies need to start introducing steel inserts.

I know that's easier said than done and I have been told the level of difficulty is high when incorporating a steel insert, but when most of the issues customers have are with ti framelock's I think it will end up saving some time and money.

That's just my opinion.
 
Crone said:
I believe the future is in steel inserts, or something like the Kershaw Sub-Frame Lock.
Click to expand...

You forgot the Quartermaster subliminal frame lock! Jared West even said that the sub in sub frame lock stands for subliminal! Yes, I did watch that whole interview. It was pretty funny.
 
Steel is too heavy. Ti just works soo well dont break things that are not broken. I do like that some guys are making Steel lock faces that can be replaces that is a nice thing to see but Carbidizing would solve alot of the issues.
 
dkb45 said:
You forgot the Quartermaster subliminal frame lock! Jared West even said that the sub in sub frame lock stands for subliminal! Yes, I did watch that whole interview. It was pretty funny.
Click to expand...

Haha yea, please PM or provide a link in this thread if you can. I'd love to watch that interview!
 
Zookie said:
The only issues I've EVER have had with folding knives, have been with titanium framelocks. I'm talking from Strider to just recently my beloved Hinderer. Custom makers and companies need to start introducing steel inserts.

I know that's easier said than done and I have been told the level of difficulty is high when incorporating a steel insert, but when most of the issues customers have are with ti framelock's I think it will end up saving some time and money.

That's just my opinion.
Click to expand...

Could you expand on the issues with your XM, as yet I've never seen of heard of lock face issues from Hinderer.
 
Steel inserts, great, something else I have to worry about loosening up over time. Titanium may be softer than steel but it aint butter and I'm sure the quality ti frame locks from reputable makers will be around a lot longer than me. I actually enjoy the look of weathered titanium myself, gives the knife character. It's a tool, it's going to get dings.
 
Damage does not give a knife "character". That is like saying the rust and paint damage on your car gives it "character".
 
dkb45 said:
Edit: I can't see how you guys are making a big fuss over weight. An ounce or two for a whole knife will make virtually no difference in use. Sure, you can feel the weight, but it bears no weight (ha, see what I did there?) in the debate.
Click to expand...
there are knives that are large enough that a switch to steel would mean a quarter pound increase in weight, or a heinous amount of milling to lighten or skeletonize the steel.
 
The main advantage of having a titanium frame lock is the ergonomics afforded by being able to use thicker stock without the penalty of added weight. The ZT550 is a great example of this. As far as inserts, I still contend that they might only be necessary with high hardness steels as in the case of the CPM-M4 Military with the frame lock vs the regular Ti Military in S30V. My Sage 2 isn't showing any progressive wear, and neither is my Sebenza. My Emerson CQC-10 framelock conversion is at 50% and hasn't moved any farther. For that matter, my CQC-7 with the titanium linerlock has settled in at around 40% and no farther.

I don't believe issues lie solely with the lock interface, but the stop pin or bladestop contact surfaces might also need to be considered.
 
I still use 17-4PH stainless in condition A (34RC) , you can make liner locks, frame locks without any difficulties, also you can pr-eheat your heat-treating kiln at 900F and soak it in there for 1 hour and that raises it to around 44RC. It is a precipitation-hardening stainless. Farid
 
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