Wootz(bulat)

K

K.K.

Joined
Dec 4, 2010
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Is it superior to normal steels in any way or is it just decorative?

Opinions wanted.
 
It used to be--back in the day before we knew about alloying elements that formed carbides. The patterning in the steel was the result of carbide banding due to the way the steel was processed, and could only be made at the time using ingots that came from some select mines. The ore from those mines contained trace carbide-forming elements. With modern metallurgy we are able to vastly outperform wootz. :)
 
The necessary element that made original wootz such a high performer is vanadium .That high wear resistant carbide that forms is found in many modern high performance alloys such as S30V !!
It also requires lots of labor and careful control of the process to make - $$$ .
It certainly was far superior to 'normal ' steels though I don't know how it compares to our modern high performance steels .
 
Probably similarly to Talonite. It's a similar concept--hard-wearing carbides suspended in a softer matrix.
 
The legend said that blades made of Wootz could handle collision of swords and cut them into 2 pieces.

Don't quote me though. At times it was possible.
 
JayGoliath said:
The legend said that blades made of Wootz could handle collision of swords and cut them into 2 pieces.

Don't quote me though. At times it was possible.
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Lots of legends, majority unfounded...I've seen wootz blades with massive chunks missing from blade on blade collision. It's an amazing steel for the time period in which it was at the peak of use, but as said now most modern alloys surpass it in every way.

A few smiths are still making wootz, but the main one that is I wouldn't deal with if a wootz sword from them was $1.
 
That legend was the ancient equivalent of comic book superheroics. The logic of swords is to bang on your enemy, not ruin your edge on his sword.
 
Yeah, I always felt the edge to edge sword clashing like in the Highlander movies was not a smart way for an immortal to treat their essential survival equipment that was meant to last them for centuries :)
 
If you look at Iaido and other Japanese martial arts that use a sword, even the Italian sword play with great swords and broad rapiers the parry of a sword is done with the side of the sword (at least you try to do that) to avoid critical damage to your blade. This is sustained in historical finds with edge indentations on the flanks of the swords, if a sword is your business you train up to a level your blade will survive in combat.

Most dont realize that a professional warrior in those days would go through swords over his career and would take his blade to the smith after a battle...also there were descriptions of soldiers taking swords for their inventory after a battle.
 
K.K. said:
Is it superior to normal steels in any way or is it just decorative?

Opinions wanted.
Click to expand...

No any old technology has proven superiority so far to modern steels. There are promising legends but not yet side to side demonstration of superiority.

In old day there were no process to make steel with controlled composition. Japanese uses low temperature melting which produce very clean chemically steel but requires a lot of hammer work to get rid of air bubbles and dirt - this why they fold and hammer, fold and hummer pieces of steel to make bar from which then sword would be made. They have this layered pattern because of that process - which has nothing to do BTW with sword quality. Hamon and hamon shadow graine and color is what important, not layered pattern.

Here you may find good reading about that:
http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/index.html

Persian made their blades out of ignots

ingold01.jpg


It was made with high carbon content and so form well known to modern metallurgy tree like pattern. Same pattern D2 made. But this dendric carbides structures lower steel quality - make it brittle. So modern metallurgy consider it as bad thing and try to avoid it during melting process.

While in the past they did not have same tools and deal with that again using hammer smith magic - so in result sword became not brittle but high carbon. Dendric carbides structures evolves during that hammer work into fluid patterns (different then layered on Japanese swords) and that actually shows quality of the sword but I am not sure that this technology reconstructed yet today.

To my knowledge Ivan Kirpichev has best results and Iranian expert found Ivan's blades identical to old Persian in pattern, but I am not sure how good they are in performance.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=435289

I have few old experimental Inav's blades they are very beautiful, but performs as good as modern avareage steel not better (which is very good for home melted steel). I can not say about his latest blades.

knife-83-016.jpg


According to Achim Wirtz special quality wootz/bulat has because of carbides seggregations around vanadium trace of dissolved dendric structures:

http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/Bulat-Achim.html#English

This in deed may improve performance and in Russia they do repetitive HT cycling for X12MF (close to D2) steel with good results (there are some speculations that Dozier doing same). But it is not final word yet because pattern Achim made is not same old persian blades has.

So back to your questions - there is not yet proven results as well as there is no yet finalized technology to make wootz/bulat.

Thanks, Vassili.

P.S. На моем сайте есть целый раздел посвященный булату, со статьями Кирпичева и пр. - но только все по русски:
http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/Bulat-Kirpi.html
 
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I would not deal with wootz even if it were reasonably priced.
From my point of view it is neither superior no decorative.
 
Robert.B said:
Lots of legends, majority unfounded...I've seen wootz blades with massive chunks missing from blade on blade collision. It's an amazing steel for the time period in which it was at the peak of use, but as said now most modern alloys surpass it in every way.

A few smiths are still making wootz, but the main one that is I wouldn't deal with if a wootz sword from them was $1.
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I still would. Some cool swords from the maker. ( just would not be able to help my self with some of the swords, even if it was morally wrong to buy one......)

I heard from a friend who had dealings with him first hand, and got an ear full, which ended my inclination to own one (unless of course it could be had for $1, then I would buy out his whole stock).


It the same type of question about lots of traditionally used methods (think layered composite steel on Katanas etc), and whether they would be superior to modern steels.

Even if Wootz (Bulat) steel is not superior to modern steels, it is still cool, and to my eye, very beautiful to look at. I have lots of knives in cheaper steel that cannot compete with super steels for performance, but I still use them because they are good designs.

Lots of steels are not high performance, but good enough for what I do with them.

I don't know about the performance with regards to modern super steels, but that is besides the point.

modern Wootz would perform well enough for me, even if it is outperformed by modern super steels.
 
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Bigfattyt said:
I still would. Some cool swords from the maker. ( just would not be able to help my self with some of the swords, even if it was morally wrong to buy one......)

I heard from a friend who had dealings with him first hand, and got an ear full, which ended my inclination to own one (unless of course it could be had for $1, then I would buy out his whole stock).
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I knew someone would click as to who I was referring to, sounds like a similar dealing I had with him. I took my money else where and was happier because not only did I get a custom sword, I made a great friend. :D
 
Robert.B said:
I knew someone would click as to who I was referring to, sounds like a similar dealing I had with him. I took my money else where and was happier because not only did I get a custom sword, I made a great friend. :D
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Keep it vague, or you might get sued!!!!!;)

It is absolutely true in my book that you buy a Maker, and the knife is secondary in the equation. I would much rather have a decent knife by a great guy, than a perfect knife from an A-hole maker, no mater how god like he was in his skill.

There are just too many great guys out there whom I would rather give my money and support to, to deal with a maker who is a jerk.

Another problem is some one being overly litigious, and suing at the drop of a hat...... even going so far as to sue a maker who messed up his heat treat and got a blade that looked a bit "wootz-ish" by accident got a nasty "I'm gonna sue you". Just not cool.

My knowledge of intellectual property rights is a bit limited (I took the intro IP law class in lawschool, but it is not my area at all). But one of the theories about intellectual property regards prior art. If you prove you invented a process, and the product can only be made your way, then you may be able to protect it.

However, a process that dates back basically to the middle ages or sooner, you would think, would be enough prior to prevent some noodle head from claiming he owned the process entirely.

Just saying.
 
I sometimes wonder who he "hasn't" sued yet...I believe he made the threat of it ages ago on a forum I helped run but I just shrugged it off. Wootz IMO does look pretty darn good, I did want to do wootz fittings on a sword but the cost was a little prohibitive. I saved this pic at least 10 years ago now so cant remember who the smith is but know its wootz. Pic doesnt really show the pattern too well.

wootz2.jpg


I couldnt agree more about buying the maker, if a smith is rude to me or rude to others I will not deal with them now days...doesn't matter how good they are at what they do.
 
The January, 2001 issue of Scientific American carried an article by John D. Verhoeven titled The Mystery of Damascus Blades. He and master bladesmith Al Pendray were able to make reconstructed Damascus steel blades replicating some of the ancient patterns such as Jacob's Ladder. Goggle 'wootz' and you'll turn up a lot of other information. I understand that Heimo Roselli's UHC (Ultra High Carbon) steel is similar to wootz.
 
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crossada said:
No harm in this is there:D;)
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=512459&highlight=wootz+sued
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I laughed hard at the guy with "Daniel Watson is my hero" under his name. I should maybe play around more with W2 and see if I can get the carbide banding going like some others have, the pic in that thread of the 01 looks amazing! but I've only ever worked 1095, W2 and 5160.

Doing a middle eastern themed blade in true wootz has been a dream for some time.
 
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