Wootz = D2?

nozh2002

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If you check Wootz production process:

http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/Bulat-Achim.html#English

You may see that result of first 3 steps would be something like home made D2, which has already needed for wootz amount of Carbon and Vanadium. Why then not to skip that process which most likely metallurgical plant will do with better quality then it can be done at home and get instead D2. Then heat cycle it:

"The next step, the ingot is heated to a temperature about 50° to 80° C below austenitizing temperature, then cooled to about 700° C and then heated again. During those heat cycles the ingot is forged to shape. At the same time, in every heat, a part of the iron carbides is dissolved and attaches to the vanadium carbide seggregations during the cooling. In the next heat, another part of the carbide is dissolved and so on and so on. In the end, most of the iron carbides will be attached to the carbide clusters that form around the vanadium seggregations. It is those carbide clusters that we can see as bright lines on the surface of a finished, etched wootz blade. The number of heat cycles necessary to result in a visible design is at least 50. First small carbide „points“ and „stripes“ can be seen after about 25 heat cycles. But a normal blade with really good designs will need at least 100 heat cycles." (by Achim Wirtz")

I am wondering if somebody tried this?

It seems like heat cycling does not require a lot of special equipment and can be done with one used for regular heat treatment.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
There are a lot of reasons your suggestion is wrong. For a starter, consider that there is also 11-13% chromium in D-2.
 
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Good Morning Vassili :) In regards to "Why then not to skip that process which most likely metallurgical plant will do with better quality then it can be done at home and get instead D2".

I think you may be missing the point. That's part of the fun....... or should I say obsession ;)
Making your own steel through smelting in a tartara you made, with ore you collected and charcoal you made yourself is the ultimate in Sole Authorship. Same goes for making crucible steel.

This knifemaking gig can be taken to almost any level you like.
Some folks are happy doing stock removal. Others just have to forge.
Some do both :D
I could go on and on about my personal obsession when it comes to knifemaking.

Your idea about using D2 as a starting point sounds as if it could be fun to try too.
I say go for it, and let us know how it works out :thumbup: :thumbup:


:cool:
 
Bladsmth is correct from what I know of the process. Only trace amountsnts of the carbide forming elements are required (and wanted). Secondly, Mr. Happypants at Angel Sword will sue your butt ala Tim Lively for supposed patent infringement (you can Google-Fu this part of the equation) ;~/
 
If you check Wootz production process:

http://playground.sun.com/~vasya/Bulat-Achim.html#English

You may see that result of first 3 steps would be something like home made D2, which has already needed for wootz amount of Carbon and Vanadium. Why then not to skip that process which most likely metallurgical plant will do with better quality then it can be done at home and get instead D2. Then heat cycle it:

"The next step, the ingot is heated to a temperature about 50° to 80° C below austenitizing temperature, then cooled to about 700° C and then heated again. During those heat cycles the ingot is forged to shape. At the same time, in every heat, a part of the iron carbides is dissolved and attaches to the vanadium carbide seggregations during the cooling. In the next heat, another part of the carbide is dissolved and so on and so on.

I am wondering if somebody tried this?

Yes, a lot of people have done this. JD Smith's "Hammer Steel" is a good example. Ed Fowler's 52100 "Wootz" is another.
Here's a gorgeous example I ran across from Philip Patton. This is O-1 that's been thermal cycled:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/414955-Anybody-want-to-guess-what-this-is
Img_0245.jpg


From my understanding of Verhooven's Scientific American paper, any alloy that contains vanadium will produce a "Wootz" pattern if thermal cycled enough.
 
Does cycling make steel better?

Also I am wondering if this may improve D2 blade on production knife - like buy one and then cycle blade.
 
Yes, a lot of people have done this. JD Smith's "Hammer Steel" is a good example. Ed Fowler's 52100 "Wootz" is another.
Here's a gorgeous example I ran across from Philip Patton. This is O-1 that's been thermal cycled:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/414955-Anybody-want-to-guess-what-this-is
Img_0245.jpg


From my understanding of Verhooven's Scientific American paper, any alloy that contains vanadium will produce a "Wootz" pattern if thermal cycled enough.

would that be called alloy banding?
 
would that be called alloy banding?

I'm not sure I understand the distinction :)

From Verhoeven, Pendray, and Dauksch

"the distinct surface patterns on these blades result from a carbide-banding phenomenon produced by the microsegregation of minor amounts of carbide-forming elements present in the wootz ingots from which the blades were forged."
 
Hi Vassili

in historical terms, the heavy alloyed nature of D2 would disqualify it from being wootz... wootz is typically just iron, carbon, and a micro alloy
- it was produced in small melts in crucibles ( which d2 also is different )
- there are alot of differences between wootz and d2 ... like apples and oranges...
and to top it off the Cr in d2 would make it brittle and not a very good sword material ( if you look at historical application of wootz )

but this doesn't mean you can't cycle it to make some patterns to enjoy !
however, i've read some banding studies that mention it as something industry doesn't want in its steel .. a more homogeneous material is preferred

it was a good steel in ancient times

take care
Greg

ps 52100 usually has banding... next to no heatcycles needed ... steels with Mn tend to do it
 
I understand that in ancient times there were no alloys elements like Cr available, however I am not looking for historical authentity, but rather apply what is modern metallurgy ignore as a value - in particular complex carbides structures not just random dendric which makes blade brittle, but well manipulated and managed by smith, which results in different may be superior quality then modern homogeneous steels.

And to do this it seems like only forging and cycling of regular steel is needed.

Thanks, Vassili.
 
I understand that in ancient times there were no alloys elements like Cr available

The raw ore that the Indians mined for the Wootz contained vanadium. It was accidental that they discovered that heat cycling high carbon steel with vanadium resulted in alloy banding.

Dr. Verhoeven's theory about the sudden disappearance of Wootz at the end of 18th century was because the vanadium-bearing iron ore in India was exhausted. Not understanding the alloy chemistry, the smiths couldn't figure out why other iron ore treated in the same way didn't create the alloy banding.
 
The raw ore that the Indians mined for the Wootz contained vanadium. It was accidental that they discovered that heat cycling high carbon steel with vanadium resulted in alloy banding.

Dr. Verhoeven's theory about the sudden disappearance of Wootz at the end of 18th century was because the vanadium-bearing iron ore in India was exhausted. Not understanding the alloy chemistry, the smiths couldn't figure out why other iron ore treated in the same way didn't create the alloy banding.

Sure, my point is that D2 with some Chromium content is not same as wootz ignots, but Dr.Verhoeven's theory about Carbides segregation around vanadium carbides traces of dendric structures is still applicable and so cycling will do same migration for D2 as it is for old Wootz. In result it will be steel armored with carbide structures as concrete armored with steel. Hammering this down may allow manage density and direction of this structures as well as number of cycles allow to manage size/thickness to final blade benefit.

I also think that gust hammering steel to shape of the blade, when some heat cycling involved as well - blade get heated to be softer and cools down during hammering.
 
Vassili
Verhoeven's mechanism of layer formation due to segregation of the carbide foming elements does not work in historic wootz blades. Russian knife community collected all (?) known from science publications original wootz compositions http://talks.guns.ru/forummessage/5/726323-23.html
4253064.jpg

there are no carbide forming elements in significant quantities.
No doubt Verhoeven's mechanism works well in alloyed steels but for carbon steels "proper" cooling from liquid is preferencial and let to produce "proper" pattern easier rather than time- and labor-consuming thermal cycling.
I like your idea on producing pattern without so dirty job as crucible smelting and I made some experimens in this direction.
As addition - my pattern on after electric-slag remelted carbon steel (with my experimental regimes) and further forging. I called it "Bulatino" :)
DSCF0213_0.jpg.crop_display.jpg


Traditional "dirty" process give a better result
bbbbb.jpg

No special treatments, ordinary forging but just "proper" cooling of crucible
My opinion is that layer formation in carbon steel is follows to preliminary cementite distribution in the needle-shape. And this strongly differ from D2 (ledeburitic) steel where part of carbides are primary and this carbides can not be dissolved in austenite.

Sergey
 
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Idea to cycle D2 is what was initially introduced in Russia 2002 as "Wave Steel" by Vassili Kozlov to my understanding (I did not have direct support of that, but some clues).
Now there is some offering by different manufacturers of same called "cycled D2" (but I like "Bulatino" better).

I am wondering if here in US somebody try this as well. Again even if this is not quite authentic - it is different then regular D2 and may be better, at least it was heavily promoted.

Does your bulat has better edge holding then regular modern steel?
 
It seems to be much ado about very little. There are several easy-to-obtain alloys that are far better than D2 already in production. If you want "banding" why nt just get some quality modern damascus? I guess I don't understand the question :confused:
 
If you want "banding" why nt just get some quality modern damascus? I guess I don't understand the question :confused:

Why does JD Smith make "Hammer Steel"? Why does Al Pendray and Rick Furer make real (non pattern-welded) wootz damascus? Because it's beautiful :)
 
I know, my comments will be regarded as heresy in some circles. There's certainly room for many schools of thought! I just don't get it.
 
"cycled D2" (but I like "Bulatino" better).
Bulatino is usual highly pure carbon steel
Does your bulat has better edge holding then regular modern steel?
Like other carbon steels, it cuts more "tasty" but not so long as (for example) CPM 10V.
Moreover to sharpen CPM 10V it takes 30 minutes opposite to 5 minutes for bulat (abrasives are diamond and korund respectively)
 
Bulatino is usual highly pure carbon steel

Like other carbon steels, it cuts more "tasty" but not so long as (for example) CPM 10V.
Moreover to sharpen CPM 10V it takes 30 minutes opposite to 5 minutes for bulat (abrasives are diamond and korund respectively)

OK. This is then again all about pattern only, no functional benefits.
 
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