Off Topic Worksharp Ken Onion Edition Sharpener--Heat Treatment and Other Concerns

[DoubleDDolan]

Hi, everyone!

So, I bought a Ken Onion sharpener about a month ago, and I'm having a rough time with it. Hoping someone on here might point me in the right direction / alleviate my worries.

Let me tell you how I came to buy the KO sharpener. Before buying the KO, I sharpened my knives with the Lansky sharpening system. No complaints with the Lansky system (with enough time, I could get my knives shaving sharp). I bought the KO after I bought a Microtech UTX-85 dagger because it couldn't be gripped by my Lansky kit. I primarily bought the KO to sharpen the Microtech, but I was excited to use it on my other knives, too.

I have three knives (aforementioned Microtech, Benchmade Osbourne, Buck 722 S30V) and I've tried all of them on my KO sharpener. I was able to put the best edge I've ever done on my Buck with the KO--insanely sharp! The other two knives haven't been working too well for me. The Osbourne is decent, but I can't get it shaving sharp for the life of me. Same thing with the Microtech. The Microtech is the worst of the bunch. I can't get it anywhere near paper sharp. To make it worse, I basically reprofiled the bevel and stripped off a bunch of the beautiful apocalypse finish on the blade (user error, I think). You can image the buyers remorse kicking in.

I'm really worried that I messed up the heat treatment on the Osbourne and Microtech, and that's why I can't get them sharp. I spent a LOT of time trying to sharpen the Microtech, and I'm worried that I messed up the heat treatment on the blade with the belt's friction heat. I was regularly checking the blade, and I wasn't feeling it get much warmer than room temp, but I don't know how sensitive it is. Same thing with the Osbourne. I'm wondering if the Buck turned out well because of its amazing factory heat treatment.

Should I be as worried as I am about damaging the heat treatment? Any thoughts about why I'm struggling with the Osbourne and Microtech but not the Buck?

 

[woodysone]

Rather then try to impart my limited knowledge you might want to ask the experts on the worksharp forum.

 

[000Robert]

Hi, everyone!

So, I bought a Ken Onion sharpener about a month ago, and I'm having a rough time with it. Hoping someone on here might point me in the right direction / alleviate my worries.

Let me tell you how I came to buy the KO sharpener. Before buying the KO, I sharpened my knives with the Lansky sharpening system. No complaints with the Lansky system (with enough time, I could get my knives shaving sharp). I bought the KO after I bought a Microtech UTX-85 dagger because it couldn't be gripped by my Lansky kit. I primarily bought the KO to sharpen the Microtech, but I was excited to use it on my other knives, too.

I have three knives (aforementioned Microtech, Benchmade Osbourne, Buck 722 S30V) and I've tried all of them on my KO sharpener. I was able to put the best edge I've ever done on my Buck with the KO--insanely sharp! The other two knives haven't been working too well for me. The Osbourne is decent, but I can't get it shaving sharp for the life of me. Same thing with the Microtech. The Microtech is the worst of the bunch. I can't get it anywhere near paper sharp. To make it worse, I basically reprofiled the bevel and stripped off a bunch of the beautiful apocalypse finish on the blade (user error, I think). You can image the buyers remorse kicking in.

I'm really worried that I messed up the heat treatment on the Osbourne and Microtech, and that's why I can't get them sharp. I spent a LOT of time trying to sharpen the Microtech, and I'm worried that I messed up the heat treatment on the blade with the belt's friction heat. I was regularly checking the blade, and I wasn't feeling it get much warmer than room temp, but I don't know how sensitive it is. Same thing with the Osbourne. I'm wondering if the Buck turned out well because of its amazing factory heat treatment.

Should I be as worried as I am about damaging the heat treatment? Any thoughts about why I'm struggling with the Osbourne and Microtech but not the Buck?

I bought a Wicked Edge system because using a dry belt will ruin the heat treat of the edges. Plus it doesn't need electricity. But I kept my WSKO for lawnmower blades and stuff. I am very happy with my WE130. I can also put perfect edges on scissors and chisels.

 

[toker]

I have three knives (aforementioned Microtech, Benchmade Osbourne, Buck 722 S30V) and I've tried all of them on my KO sharpener. I was able to put the best edge I've ever done on my Buck with the KO--insanely sharp! The other two knives haven't been working too well for me. The Osbourne is decent, but I can't get it shaving sharp for the life of me. Same thing with the Microtech. The Microtech is the worst of the bunch. I can't get it anywhere near paper sharp. To make it worse, I basically reprofiled the bevel and stripped off a bunch of the beautiful apocalypse finish on the blade (user error, I think). You can image the buyers remorse kicking in.

Are you working through the various grits? As long as you have a steady hand, you shouldn't have an issue putting an edge on any of your knives. My suggestion would be to use a sharpie and mark the entire edge of the knife. That will show you immediately what you're sharpening with each stroke. If you're getting an edge on your Buck, there's no reason that you can't get an edge on the other knives. It may take more strokes since the steel may be different on the Benchmade and Microtech.

I'm really worried that I messed up the heat treatment on the Osbourne and Microtech, and that's why I can't get them sharp. I spent a LOT of time trying to sharpen the Microtech, and I'm worried that I messed up the heat treatment on the blade with the belt's friction heat. I was regularly checking the blade, and I wasn't feeling it get much warmer than room temp, but I don't know how sensitive it is. Same thing with the Osbourne. I'm wondering if the Buck turned out well because of its amazing factory heat treatment.

As long as you're not running the Worksharp a maximum speed, there shouldn't be any danger of ruining the heat treat. Your blade would also have to be a lot hotter than "warm". It doesn't sound like you ever came close to ruining the heat treat. Even if you did somehow ruin the heat treat, you still would be able to put an edge on the knife. The edge just wouldn't last very long.

The Worksharp has a slight learning curve and it takes time to break in the belts. I would sharpen a few dozen kitchen knives before sharpening your better knives. You'll get more experience and you'll break in the belts. That being said, I usually only use the Worksharp for kitchen knives. I much prefer the Wicked Edge for my nicer knives.

 

[000Robert]

As long as you're not running the Worksharp a maximum speed, there shouldn't be any danger of ruining the heat treat. Your blade would also have to be a lot hotter than "warm". It doesn't sound like you ever came close to ruining the heat treat. Even if you did somehow ruin the heat treat, you still would be able to put an edge on the knife. The edge just wouldn't last very long.

The amount of steel at the blade apex is very small. You can ruin the heat treat and not even feel the heat in the blade. Read the article that I have linked in my post. Dr. Thomas explains it very well.

 

[toker]

The amount of steel at the blade apex is very small. You can ruin the heat treat and not even feel the heat in the blade. Read the article that I have linked in my post. Dr. Thomas explains it very well.

I read the article and it looks like the original Worksharp was used in the tests. I don't believe that version allowed you to change the speed of the belt. As I mentioned before, I use the Worksharp on my kitchen knives due to the number. I've never noticed any difference in edge retention compared to when I was using the Wicked Edge on the same knives.

 

[000Robert]

I read the article and it looks like the original Worksharp was used in the tests. I don't believe that version allowed you to change the speed of the belt. As I mentioned before, I use the Worksharp on my kitchen knives due to the number. I've never noticed any difference in edge retention compared to when I was using the Wicked Edge on the same knives.

He used a WS but he was talking about any dry belt. His intention wasn't to just poke at WS. I have one of the new WSKOWBGA also and the slow speed isn't slow enough because it's still a dry belt.

 

[toker]

He used a WS but he was talking about any dry belt. His intention wasn't to just poke at WS. I have one of the new WSKOWBGA also and the slow speed isn't slow enough because it's still a dry belt.

The article makes sense. I just haven't noticed any difference in edge retention in any of my kitchen knives.

 

[bgentry]

It's not all that likely that you've ruined the heat treat. Even knives with bad heat treats can take an edge. They just won't keep it very long. I used to go to gun shows in South Florida often. There was a vendor there that was an old performer. He became a salesman later in his career and was selling a pull through sharpener. He would take a butter knife and work in through the pull through and make it sharp enough to easily slice magazine paper in a very impressive fashion. We all know the butter knife wouldn't hold an edge. But it would take one!

If by some chance you've ruined the heat treat at the *very* edge, you can just grind it away and get back to fresh metal. By grind it away, I simply mean 3 or 4 strokes of the edge cutting INTO a stone. That will erase the edge and leave a flat area where the edge used to be.

You should try the reflected light test on these blades to see if they have been ground all the way to the edge. I suspect that both your blades have very obtuse geometries. I.E. extremely thick blades with high edge angles. You probably have not ground all the way to the edge, or have just "kissed" the edge a few times, rather than grinding all the way until the bevels meet. It's possible that the microtech in particular has a very high edge angle. Perhaps 25 degrees per side or maybe even more. This is just speculation, but you should investigate for sure.

Good luck.
Brian.

 

[777 Edge]

Unfortunately there is no way around it. Any dry grinder (belts or wheels) that removes metal fast, WILL affect the heat treat of the very edge. This isn't necessary why you're not getting your edges sharp, but it's worth knowing.

Don't get me wrong, having a system like a Worksharp Ken Onion or other grinder has a place in your knife maintenance arsenal, and I have one myself but I most definitely do not use it for final sharpening.

I know this gets argued a lot by fans of fast sharpening systems, but it is basic physics, or more specifically - thermodynamics. Remove metal fast when it is already only microns thick without keeping it cool (water stream), and it WILL heat up very, very fast. (We're talking a tiny fraction of a second fast here) This is true for even the slowest speed you can set on just about any dry grinding systems, including any Worksharp grinder.

You won't ever feel it happen, because we're talking about the very tip of the edge, not the whole blade.

Just like 000Robert mentioned, the edge is incredibly thin and you will overheat it in a fraction of a second and never even realize it. You won't necessarily ruin the heat treat of the whole blade, just the very edge.

Belts and wheels are great for restoration, fast grinding and knife making, but slow going on a stone by hand for final sharpening is the only way to guarantee your edge will not overheat.

Just like everything in life, good things take more time.

 

[kreisler]

The instructions say to practice on knives you don't love, but I started with my Microtech like an idiot.

the Microtech looks like a challenge!

 

[DoubleDDolan]

Are you working through the various grits? As long as you have a steady hand, you shouldn't have an issue putting an edge on any of your knives. My suggestion would be to use a sharpie and mark the entire edge of the knife. That will show you immediately what you're sharpening with each stroke. If you're getting an edge on your Buck, there's no reason that you can't get an edge on the other knives. It may take more strokes since the steel may be different on the Benchmade and Microtech.


As long as you're not running the Worksharp a maximum speed, there shouldn't be any danger of ruining the heat treat. Your blade would also have to be a lot hotter than "warm". It doesn't sound like you ever came close to ruining the heat treat. Even if you did somehow ruin the heat treat, you still would be able to put an edge on the knife. The edge just wouldn't last very long.

The Worksharp has a slight learning curve and it takes time to break in the belts. I would sharpen a few dozen kitchen knives before sharpening your better knives. You'll get more experience and you'll break in the belts. That being said, I usually only use the Worksharp for kitchen knives. I much prefer the Wicked Edge for my nicer knives.

I am working through the grits, which makes it really strange. I can get the edges on the Microtech and Osbourne pretty sharp, but nowhere near what I can get on the Buck. Used the same sharpening process as the Buck. The Buck and Osbourne are S30V; the Microtech is M390. About the steady hand, the Buck has a nice flat blade that makes it easy to use with the KO angle guide. On the other hand, the Microtech is basically shaped like a diamond (because dagger) and the Osbourne has a weird shape. I'm wondering if I'm not holding those knives as accurately as I think I am.

I definitely regret not learning on some kitchen knives. The instructions say to practice on knives you don't love, but I started with my Microtech like an idiot.

 

[DoubleDDolan]

There's way too much talk about heat treat in this thread. If an expensive edge doesn't cut paper, then one should examine the apex with a loupe. Burr? Rounded?

The content of the op makes little logical sense to me to the extent that sensitive me feels being trolled, none taken.

Anyway, welcome to the forum D DoubleDDolan (btw i find your choice of nick offensive\degrading)

Chrysler

Hey Chrysler. Totally agree about the cutting part. I have to be doing something wrong, but I'm not sure what.
Chose the nickname because my initials are D.D. Plus, I'm a powerlifter with a huge chest, so it's a bit funny.

 

[DoubleDDolan]

It's not all that likely that you've ruined the heat treat. Even knives with bad heat treats can take an edge. They just won't keep it very long. I used to go to gun shows in South Florida often. There was a vendor there that was an old performer. He became a salesman later in his career and was selling a pull through sharpener. He would take a butter knife and work in through the pull through and make it sharp enough to easily slice magazine paper in a very impressive fashion. We all know the butter knife wouldn't hold an edge. But it would take one!

If by some chance you've ruined the heat treat at the *very* edge, you can just grind it away and get back to fresh metal. By grind it away, I simply mean 3 or 4 strokes of the edge cutting INTO a stone. That will erase the edge and leave a flat area where the edge used to be.

You should try the reflected light test on these blades to see if they have been ground all the way to the edge. I suspect that both your blades have very obtuse geometries. I.E. extremely thick blades with high edge angles. You probably have not ground all the way to the edge, or have just "kissed" the edge a few times, rather than grinding all the way until the bevels meet. It's possible that the microtech in particular has a very high edge angle. Perhaps 25 degrees per side or maybe even more. This is just speculation, but you should investigate for sure.

Good luck.
Brian.

Thanks for the response, Brian. It's a relief that I can grind away the apex and get back to nice metal that I can properly sharpen. I was so worried that I'd have to contact the manufacturers to buy new blades. I think you're right about the edge geometries on my blades. The Microtech has a very obtuse profile. Never worked with a blade like it before.

I'm considering putting a 25 degree edge on the Microtech by using a few strokes with a rough belt on the KO and finishing it off with whetstones (just ordered a set of whetstones). Your thoughts?

 

[DoubleDDolan]

Unfortunately there is no way around it. Any dry grinder (belts or wheels) that removes metal fast, WILL affect the heat treat of the very edge. This isn't necessary why you're not getting your edges sharp, but it's worth knowing.

Don't get me wrong, having a system like a Worksharp Ken Onion or other grinder has a place in your knife maintenance arsenal, and I have one myself but I most definitely do not use it for final sharpening.

I know this gets argued a lot by fans of fast sharpening systems, but it is basic physics, or more specifically - thermodynamics. Remove metal fast when it is already only microns thick without keeping it cool (water stream), and it WILL heat up very, very fast. (We're talking a tiny fraction of a second fast here) This is true for even the slowest speed you can set on just about any dry grinding systems, including any Worksharp grinder.

You won't ever feel it happen, because we're talking about the very tip of the edge, not the whole blade.

Just like 000Robert mentioned, the edge is incredibly thin and you will overheat it in a fraction of a second and never even realize it. You won't necessarily ruin the heat treat of the whole blade, just the very edge.

Belts and wheels are great for restoration, fast grinding and knife making, but slow going on a stone by hand for final sharpening is the only way to guarantee your edge will not overheat.

Just like everything in life, good things take more time.

Everything you said makes sense to me. Feeling a lot of buyers regret with the KO. Wish I'd just bought a nice set of whetstones and did it all by hand, no matter how long it takes.

So let's say that I did mess up the heat treatment on the apex. How can I correct it? Can I try wearing down the apex on a brick and then resharpen with stones, or do I need new entirely new blades?

 

[DoubleDDolan]

the Microtech looks like a challenge!

It sure is. I LOVE the knife, but sharpening it is tough. I feel like I ruined the blade, so I feel like crap. I wish I'd just bought whetstones and taken my time with it.

 

[777 Edge]

Everything you said makes sense to me. Feeling a lot of buyers regret with the KO. Wish I'd just bought a nice set of whetstones and did it all by hand, no matter how long it takes.

So let's say that I did mess up the heat treatment on the apex. How can I correct it? Can I try wearing down the apex on a brick and then resharpen with stones, or do I need new entirely new blades?

You'll be able to get back to good steel on a whetstone easily if the edge is affected.

A diamond stone would be the fastest way, but any coarse silicon carbide or aluminum oxide whetstone will do the trick on the steels you mentioned.

Best way would really be a fixed angle system, like the Hapstone R2, if you want to upgrade one day. With one of these, you won't be disappointed.

 

[karnaknives]

It's possible that the microtech in particular has a very high edge angle. Perhaps 25 degrees per side or maybe even more. This is just speculation, but you should investigate for sure.

Good luck.
Brian.

I think bgentry is onto something....If you do a little looking you'll find that a lot agree the Microtech is a challenge to sharpen.
I've never seen that exact knife you have in person, but others have said the angle is approx. 50 degrees inclusive (25dps).
And that makes more sense when you say you were affecting the blade finish, but not sharpening the apex.

 

[DoubleDDolan]

You'll be able to get back to good steel on a whetstone easily if the edge is affected.

A diamond stone would be the fastest way, but any coarse silicon carbide or aluminum oxide whetstone will do the trick on the steels you mentioned.

Man, you've no idea how relieved I am. I've got a decent set of aluminum oxide whetstones arriving today and I can't wait to try them.
I just tried putting a 25 degree angle on the Microtech with a rough belt on the KO. It actually already feels sharper (Weird!). Just did a few strokes. Not sure if it matters, but I had been using the 20 degree setting before. I'm going to sharpen the rest of the way by hand.
Thanks for the feedback!

 

[DoubleDDolan]

I think bgentry is onto something....If you do a little looking you'll find that a lot agree the Microtech is a challenge to sharpen.
I've never seen that exact knife you have in person, but others have said the angle is approx. 50 degrees inclusive (25dps).
And that makes more sense when you say you were affecting the blade finish, but not sharpening the apex.

You're right! It's funny, I put a gorgeous mirror finish on the blade, but it just wasn't getting sharp like it should. I just tried a few strokes with the 25 degree setting, and it actually feels sharper. Glad to know I'm not the only one who finds Microtechs tough to sharpen. I love the knife, but it's got a weird shape and a tough steel.