Wortac versus Kasper

sniperboy

sniperboy

Joined
Oct 19, 1999
Messages
2,836
Any opinions on these two fine looking Pat Crawford knives sirs?



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</A> If you play with love you will be heartbroken; if you play with knives you will [bleed]


 
Hello! I am the proud owner of a titanium KFF, which I've been carrying daily for the last two and a half months. Love it, never want to be without it!
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If you look in the search feature for both of these sweet knives, I'm sure you'll find a lot of info. I've handled a couple of Wortacs at a recent knife show; a bit longer than the KFF, with no pinkie hook, but more of a downward curve, kind of like a pistol grip. I'm sure you can't go wrong with either...maybe you should get both!
 
Forget both and get the Rolling Lock Carnivore. It is a more reliable folder, and it is pretty much a hybrid of the Wortac and KFF in terms of design.
 
Thanks for the tips.. actually my NEXT question was how would the Carnivore fare? I don't think I am willing to spend half a grand on a custom carnivore so i might go for a REKAT. Too bad BM didnt make it =\.

I have heard people complain that KASPERS are big on their hands...
 
Get a Carnivore. I like the Kasper, but it is BIG. Awesome design, but very big for daily carry. Crawford does make a smaller version of the Kasper. The Carnivore is one of the most ergonomic designs I have seen. REKAT did a good job of translating the design into a production model.

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Dennis Bible
Knoxville, Tennessee


 
I have two Kaspers and I love them. I don't mind the size because they feel great in my hand. Of course, I wear cotton Chinos with large pockets so I don't have a problem carrying them.

Axel
 
from the looks of thing everyoine is commenting on KASPERS and not on the Wortac.. whcih in theory answers a lot of my internal questions =)

then again thinking of it.. I like crawford. eventhough the carnivour was a hybrid he did in theory design it unlike the wortac and kasper.



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</A> If you play with love you will be heartbroken; if you play with knives you will [bleed]


 
I have the Kasper first and like it. I have been carrying the Carnivour more and more recently. It's a bit lighter, a slimmer print and, as Harv pointed out, a RL. I handled the Wortac and found it comfortable in the grip. It has a longer handle than the other two. I found it somewhat uncomfortable in my pocket.


sing

AKTI #A000356
 
It's a shame that the Wortac doesn't get as much exposure as it does. I think of it as highly as the others mentioned. Kind of wish I can get my hands on a Wortac to do a review, or all three and do a comparative review.
 
The Wortac just hasn't been around long enought to catch on. It is essentially a Crawford Shark blade with a slightly more ergonomic version of the Kaspar handle.

The Rolling lock is a far more valuable asset than the inconsequential differences between the Wortac and the KFF for a defensive folder. The lock is the thing!
 
Funny thing about the Rolling Lock. I asked Pat Crawford to put one on a KFF. He told me that Bob Kasper does not like the position of the releasing slide bar of the Rolling Lock so he wouldn't put it on the KFF. Bob feels that the lock could accidently become unlocked by the thumb when shifting from the saber to the natural grip.

Instead, I had Pat make two KFF's with an additional 1/2" of unground edge at the pivot so that in the event of a lock failure the unground edge would strike my finger.

Axel
 
Well hey, when it's all said and done, I carry the Carnivour.

Lock failure. So far I have yet to have one with mine. Nonetheless, I too am concerned over the issue of white knuckle failure. That's why I've suggested to make the slide release smaller and round and smooth it out. The only way it could disengage then is if you delibrately press it down with your thumbnail. Problem solved.

That's not asking much is it? Considering that we're so close to what I consider as the first real practical locking mechanism for high intensity folders. (Notice I didn't say "tactical"!
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OH!?!? Is the Kasper double edged? I was thinking it was a swedge and would've wanted Crawford to make it a false edge with a novel idea of making it 1.5 sharp instead of double.

I guess.. as with many of my knife ideas (since I am a newbie) it wasn't as novel as I once thought =)



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</A> If you play with love you will be heartbroken; if you play with knives you will [bleed]


 
Axel,

From my experience with the Carnivore and RL, I think the idea of an accidental unlocking by grip changes is too remote of a possibility.

But, I understand your love of your KFF's. I love mine and will keep it. It's linerlock is still the best I have had or seen out there.

sing

AKTI #A000356
 
Sniperboy,

The KFF has a single edge with a false edge on top. The upper edge sticks above the handle when closed. A sharpened false edge would not work because it would cut in the closed position.

The KFF was designed by Bob Kasper whose background is military unarmed combat. He is strongly influenced by Col. Rex Applegate, karate training and real world experience. His design has been made by Pat Crawford longer so more users have had a chance to try it appreciate it. Deep pocket carry, a secure grip, and a recessed lock are just a few of the nice features of this knife. Bob chose a wide blade pattern to make a large wound hole. The knife is large and heavy.

The Wortac was designed by Kelly Worden. His background is the Philippine martial arts (FMA) and growing up in the streets of Seattle. His design is relatively new. I have not handled the Wortac, but I can see that some features are the same, index finger cut-out for a strong grip and thumb ramp. The handle is longer because in the FMA the butt of the weapon is used to strike as well as the point. The longer handle can also be used as a fist-load for striking when the knife is closed. Another FMA technique. I don't know why, but Kelly chose a recurved blade design. This is a big knife.

Different designers, different backgrounds, same purpose. These are both excellent fighting folders. Pat Crawford learned a lot from both of these and created the Carnivour. The nice thing about the Carnivour is that REKAT makes a relatively inexpensive production version compared to the custom KFF and Wortac.

Final opinion is that these are all good fighting folders designed by people who have spent a lot of time thinking about what they wanted in a knife. Find the one that fits you and what you like.
 
Compared to most people, I have pretty small hands. I mean, I wear size S/M size gloves. My point is, I've had no problems at all with my KFF. It's a big knife, but not THAT big. Lengthwise, it's about as long as a Spydie Endura or a CS Voyager. It's just wider, that's all. The handle is a lot bigger, for a much more secure grip. Compared to my other folders, the KFF's handle is like grabbing onto sticky molasses. VERY secure.

Also, I've had no problems whatsover carrying the KFF in my front pocket. Sure, it's a big knife, but it rides comfortably. I just get a very confident feeling when I open this knife and have it in my hand. I don't know how Pat does it...

Regarding liner locks, the liner on the KFF is VERY recessed. I mean, when I first got it, Pat had to show me how to close it. My index finger was sore for the first few days because you really have to dig your finger in there to disengage the lock. I've had no problems at all with mine.

Whew, all this talk is making me crave another Crawford knife. Hmmm, maybe a Carnivore, or one of those sweet looking Janus models...
 
THanks for the complete and unbiased report Damon, thanks also again for the rest of you guys for the sweet juicy opinions... no I have not reached a decision yet but it seems that the crowd fave is the KFF and the carnivour. I just wished I wasn't still holding out for a Pat Crawford Balisong that I can easily blow money for a custom folder - but hey maybe I can hoard some xmas money - i am of chinese blood after all (the culture that gives money to little kids cause the old reltives have no clue wht thre kid wants =p)

I was wondering about AXEL and DAMON's comments. AXEL, made it sound that the KFF had a complete sharpened false edge and so that he could put a rolling lock on it he had requested mr. crawford to make the 'top' (spine near the pivot) unground for safety.

on the other hand, mr. DAMON made it appear that the KFF had a unsharpened swedge.

Ofcourse I have thought that a double edged folder would be a no no when I first thoguht of the idea looking at Elishewitz's phantom, but thought hey if you made the actual knife (liner or scales wassit dont know the term) wider you can completely cover the sharpened false edge while in the closed position and you don't really hit the spine of your blade on your hand when you do an inertia opening right?

or am i blabbering about some old established thing already?

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<A HREF="http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~soo/balisong/balisong.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.contrib.andrew.cmu.edu/~soo/balisong/balisong.html
</A> If you play with love you will be heartbroken; if you play with knives you will [bleed]


 
SniperBoy,

The top swedge of the KFF is NOT sharpened. It is grounded to a thin but still blunt edge. You could sharpen it but I think it would be a dangerous thing as that swedge is exposed in a closed position.

Axel is the most devout of KFF owners. He has several KFFs and has had Pat C made him dulled edge "trainer" -- essentially a real KFF without sharp edges. When the rolling lock came out, Axel asked Pat to make a KFF with a RL. Kasper nixed the idea. (Too bad, in my opinion.) Axel than have Crawford dulled/or ground flat 1" of the blade closest to the pivot. This way if the linerlock fails, the part of the blade that closes on the index finger is not sharp. Axel LOVES his KFF's and has found a viable solution to possible concern with the linerlock.

Sniperboy, you must be fairly young, or single if you're still receiving "hung bao's." Need quite a few of those to get a Crawford.
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BTW, my photopoint account has pictures of the Carnivore and the KFF. Several pix show details of the KFF linerlock.
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=135433&a=992914

sing

AKTI #A000356

[This message has been edited by sing (edited 06 December 1999).]
 
Sing,

Thanks for the info.. You think Kasper or Crawford will allow a sharpened half false edge on the design that the liner would cover that part of the blade while closed? (as you can see I am a false edge fan) or is that just a ludicrous idea altogether..

and I wish I was young enough tolegally get Hong Paos enough for a Kasper (as you know chiense clans are HUGE) ^_^. It would make things easier for me. Although my uncles and aunts either dont know what to get me as xmas presents or think I am still a kid =p.

I am checking out yoru pics.. thanks again.
 
sniperboy,

All but the very tip of the false edge is exposed on the KFF. A half false edge would be exposed. A sharpened false edge might work if the knife were somehow fitted to a Kydex sheath that covered the false edge.

Sorry if I confused you about the unground edge description. sing is right that I had Pat Crawford leave 1/2" of extra unground edge at the pivot edge on my KFFs. You only lose 1/2" of edge. The blade doesn't look that strange. It just looks like the edge starts farther away from the pivot.

Even if Pat had put the RL on my KFF, I was still going to have this modification done to the blade.

See Steve Harvey's thread on Rolling lock failures below:

http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000294.html

Bob Taylor of REKAT knives suggested that maybe Steve accidently hit the release lever. The new Rolling Locks now have the slide bar which might be an improvement. Only time will tell.

I'm of the opinion that there is not a 100% reliable folder lock. Any time you have a quick release mechanism, an accidental unlocking can occur.

I hope to meet Pat Crawford at the upcoming Timonium Knife Show. I also hope to handle the Carnivour and Wortac. They both look to be nice designs. I prefer the pinky hook and broad blade on the KFF to the Carnivour's design. However, once I hold one I may change my mind. The Wortac looks a bit on the large size.

I'm in total agreement with MrG's assessment on the KFF handle. Even when I'm doing hard impact training with my training KFF, my grip stays rock solid.

I'm 36, married, with a 3 year old son, but I still occasionally get red envelopes. However, my son gets most of them now.

Axel

 
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