Would thickly ground knives.... (yes, like Striders) be better with a convex edge?

Walking Man

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I can't help but thinking that the big superchunky knives, which (may) include Striders or stuff like the Becker entry tool would be better at cutting stuff up with with a convex grind. Anyone else?
 
I've got a few Bark Rivers with blades that seem pretty thick, that will slice as well as most thin blades, including kitchen knives. I think it has something to do with the convex grind itself, too, how high up it begins curving down to the edge.
 
Walking Man said:
I can't help but thinking that the big superchunky knives, which (may) include Striders or stuff like the Becker entry tool would be better at cutting stuff up with with a convex grind. Anyone else?

Not necessarily, a splitting maul has a convex grind, it doesn't cut very well. Most of the heavier knives would benefit from having their cross section reduced if you don't need the durability it offers however this doesn't need a convex grind. You could easily convex the knife and make it cut worse by simply increasing the edge angle or thickening the edge or doing both.

Most people are under the misleading idea that "convexing" a knife increases cutting ability due to the fact that the grind changed curvature as many makers promote this idea. In reality a very obtuse factory bevel is changed from 20-25 per side to about 10 per side so you are seeing the effect of an edge relief. Mike Swaim and Joe Talmade both noted the effect such changes on edge angles make on cutting ability using flat grinds.

If you really want to see an extreme relief grind then read Johnstons descriptions of how he hollow grinds reliefs on blades which don't cut well. These are pure cutting tools, no heavy chopping or prying.

-Cliff
 
Some striders come with a convex grind (among other things on the same blade)

nightmare.jpg


it cuts better than my sng if that is worth anything :)
 
I took the convex edge off of my swamprat M6 and put a 20 degree bevel on it. It cuts and chops much better now. I agree with Cliff the convex thing seems overrated.Not to mention I have a much easier time getting a V grind hair popping sharp.
 
wicked1 said:
I took the convex edge off of my swamprat M6 and put a 20 degree bevel on it. It cuts and chops much better now.

Yes, focus on the angles. Just consider that a full convex grind is found on both splitting mauls and opinels and that a hollow grind is found on hard wood felling axes and straight razors. There are differences in how the grinds perform due to the curvature but this is usually far secondary to the thickness and angles used. Note for example there are also flat ground splitting mauls, in fact the largest splitting mauls, the monster mauls, are flat ground. These handle poor wood much better than the normal convex ground splitters simply because the monster mauls are way thicker/heavier because the heads are ground out of thicker stock.

-Cliff
 
Most out-of-the-box blades seem to have edges that favor edge strength. My SMF came with edge bevel of about 40 degrees included on the straight edge portion, changing to blunter 50 degrees included for the tip portion. With that edge, edge strength is very good but slicing efficiency suffers.

That S30V blade now has 10 degree main bevels with 15 degree micro-bevels, producing good slicing efficiency with enough edge strength for slicing hardwoods (no impact work, nothing harder than hardwoods).

I favor compound bevels (main bevels with micro-bevels), simply because it's a lot easier to optimize edge strength by altering the angles of the micro-bevels to suit your toughest cutting tasks.

I chose 10 degree main bevels simply because I think it's the minimum safe bevel angle for combining bevel strength with decent slicing efficiency.
 
Ten is likely high, consider for example Wilson and others will grind primaries down to 0.005" and the edge is <15. However it is very difficult to hone under ten on most knives because you start approaching the primary grind itself. The gain is also not as dramatic in going from 10 to 7-8 as it is from 20 to 10 as well. I run 10/15 on most flat grinds as well, close to 5/10-15 on most hollows depending on steel/use.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
Ten is likely high, consider for example Wilson and others will grind primaries down to 0.005" and the edge is <15. However it is very difficult to hone under ten on most knives because you start approaching the primary grind itself. The gain is also not as dramatic in going from 10 to 7-8 as it is from 20 to 10 as well. I run 10/15 on most flat grinds as well, close to 5/10-15 on most hollows depending on steel/use.

-Cliff

Cliff

I am confused as to the way these angles are measured and I could use all the assistance I could get.

Thank you in advance.
 
gud4u said:
I favor compound bevels (main bevels with micro-bevels), simply because it's a lot easier to optimize edge strength by altering the angles of the micro-bevels to suit your toughest cutting tasks.

I chose 10 degree main bevels simply because I think it's the minimum safe bevel angle for combining bevel strength with decent slicing efficiency.
You can do the same thing with convexing you just don't need a jig or something to keep your honing flat. You'll end up with some more curve at the edge as you do this. I personally like to go too thin at first, very shallow curve, and raise slowly until I get no edge damage with use. However, I do favor convex bevels and hand sharpening, if you use a jig or something convexing is probably not what your going to do.
 
Darkestthicket that is an awesome knife.

Looks like an SmF

Is it an MSC nightmare grind or a DDC???

Its a great blade. Really stabby tanto.
 
g_moutafis said:
I am confused as to the way these angles are measured and I could use all the assistance I could get.

You can measure them with a set of calipers and calculate using basic trig. They usually change along the edge of the knife and from one side to another so you need to check a few places and get an average.

-Cliff
 
If you have a scientific calculator, caliper and remember your trig, it's quite easy to measure honing angles. That's what I do.

The sine function is your friend.
 
razorsdescent said:
Darkestthicket that is an awesome knife.

Looks like an SmF

Is it an MSC nightmare grind or a DDC???

Its a great blade. Really stabby tanto.

Msc SMF with nightmare grind and triscula (sp?) i cant spell for crap. most money ive ever spent on a knife but i love it.
 
Walking Man said:
I can't help but thinking that the big superchunky knives, which (may) include Striders or stuff like the Becker entry tool would be better at cutting stuff up with with a convex grind. Anyone else?

As said, not necessarily. My first knife, custom made, came with a very thick edge and a 40° included V - angle. I could make much words, but even though the whole intention was "solid", i wasn´t satisfied with the cutting power, as you can easily consider :) .

But just setting the angle back from 40° to something less than 30° wasn´t what i wanted the knife to be. It still should be solid. So convexing it was a solution, that works pretty well.

There might have been other solutions, like a secondary bevel, something like 20° included, and a microbevel at the very edge, but that seemed to be a bit complex on a simple knife.

Using sandpaper is simple. It seemed as a "one move and ready" way to be and it really was.

So i get a new relief like recommended before and than used the sandpaper method to smooth the "corners" and form a strong edge.

It cuts better and still is that knife i wanted it to be.

My Bandicoot with it´s factory convex edge was terrible too of the exact same reasons, Cliff noted above. The angle in wich the convex line meets was much to large. The edge wasn´t that much strong and lost it´s cutting ability soon.

It get a new relief by removing steel, starting from half the blades height. It still is convex but on a smaller level. Lost strength is not an issue or say it is more theoretically. It still is strong at the edge but it cuts much better. In that relief, the SR 101 takes the best push cutting edge i have felt on my arm hair.
 
Cliff Stamp said:
You can measure them with a set of calipers and calculate using basic trig. They usually change along the edge of the knife and from one side to another so you need to check a few places and get an average.

-Cliff

Thanks Cliff.

Ideally, should there be a constant angle throughout the length of the blade?
 
gud4u said:
If you have a scientific calculator, caliper and remember your trig, it's quite easy to measure honing angles. That's what I do.

The sine function is your friend.

Thaks for the assistance / info. I appreciate it.
 
g_moutafis said:
Ideally, should there be a constant angle throughout the length of the blade?

You could make an arguement that since different parts of the knife are used for different things they would benefit from different angles. However this makes sharpening kind of difficult. You can achieve a similar effect with a distal taper so that the edge thickness varies along the blade with the angle the same.

-Cliff
 
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