Would you use the knives in the video or 20cv knives in the field?

[OBX351]

Sorry for the LONG statement....if you don't want to read the whole, rant, string just watch the video and answer the question that has been bolded

Guy did a CPM-3V Corrosion Test almost exactly 3 years ago, found here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNo2YUe-mbQ&t=1s. I've actually handled these and another knife that he did this corrosion test and I found the knives to the structurally sound. Guy agreed as well. Now he's been testing the new heat treat 3v with the new finish and posted a picture on Instagram with these comments:
surviveknivesRemember those 3V weather test blades? Well, they have been outside for over a year now. The dates I had written on them have long since faded. The new low temper protocol is definitely seeming more weather resistant than the old high temper standard. There is one small spot that could be the beginning of some rust but it could just be a spot of dirt baked onto the blade. How about we just forget about them for a while longer and see what happens?

The post can be found here:
https://www.instagram.com/p/BKGp0Keht01/

Recently in one of the posts I had a question about the original corrosion tests and if I would use them long term in the field. The conversation is below.

So, in my long winded way, this begs the question. Would you take the knives in the above video into the field long term? Or do you believe you'd be better off with a CMP 20CV blade?

I agree, the corrosion resistance is outstanding, especially the D3V, theres a photo on their instagram that shows the significant improvement.

But let's say hypothetically, if that knife was given to you in that condition (the 1 year one) and you didn't have tools to clean it up like Guy did (because you in an isolated environment), would you still take it over 20cv? What i am getting is, do you think the knife's performance is disadvantaged or affected negatively in any way (besides aesthetics) if the corrosion resistance is built up over a year and still remains long-term while performing?

This is all out of interest^
the more i read about the carbon vs stainless knives for any situation be that; survival, BC, tactical, shtf siruations, the more I see a divide between those who prefer stainless and those who prefer high-carbon steels. Surely thats not because of aesthetics right? I don't understand why there are two sides to this. Shouldn't the tough steel be the preferred not the more rust resistant one? Its almost like the choil vs no choil divide lol.

Don't mean to pick on you hahaha....but maybe you can shed some light on this?

Your first question: Would I take the 1 year old knife in an isolated situation? Yes, I would still take the 3v over 20cv assuming that I have the ability to sharpen either knife. I handled both knives and Guy confirmed that both were structurally sound.

Your second question: Do I think the knife's performance is effected by 12 months of corrosion? Is that knife capable of continuing to perform in the long term? No to the first, see my above answer. Yes to the second, again based on handling the knife and speaking with Guy. I would find some sand and try to take off the surface rust but 3v doesn't seem to erode like 1095, 10x5, 01 and other high carbon steels when exposed to long term moisture. Guy proves this in his video and again I handled those 2 knifes and another he was testing. They were all structurally fine and as long as I could resharpen them I would use them in the field long term.

My challenge with stainless steels is that it can't take the beating that high carbon steels can. Over the past 3 years I've been using 20cv and 3v and I've found that I can sharpen either in about the same amount of time. That in addition to the fact that 3v stays sharper longer than 20cv makes me want to use 3v. You can wipe off the surface rust on a 3v blade and not have much worry if you take care of it. In the same situation, long term survival/outdoors, and I had a choice between 1095, 01 or even CFV in an uncoated blade I would choose 20cv. But if the blade was coated I would CFV or 01 over 20cv because I believe the high carbon blades would have a less of a chance to chip when batoning and chopping.

In the extreme, like a jungle, I would probably change my mind about this debate unless I could get a coated 3v knife. I've seen pictures of ESEE knives that have been used in jungle camps. The coating gets pretty beat up but it seems to protect the 1095 steel.

In summary 3v can get surface stains that can be removed with steel wool or sand and elbow grease. It doesn't seem to decay like other high carbon steels. Guy wasn't concerned about the structural integrity of these knives. He wouldn't let me buy any of these test knives because he doesn't sell used knives.

Lastly, I am NOT an expert. I am answering your questions based on what I saw and handled at the old PA S!K shop and several conversations with Guy about these knives and the steels he uses. I have been out in the field with my S!Ks for days not weeks. I am pretty hard on my knives but most of this is work at home or on hikes in my area.

I know you're not picking on me but this is a great debate. Here's another string which might help as well: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/sh...vs-20cv-vs-154

Here's my S!K steel stack rank based on (in order of preference) edge strength, ease of sharpening, edge retention and ease of maintenance/corrosion resistance:
second gen heat treat 3v
CFV
second gen 20cv
original 3v
original 20cv for light to med tasks ONLY otherwise I don't like the steel.

So this begs the question, how would you rank the following: edge strength, edge retention and ease of sharpening and ease of maintenance/corrosion resistance (meaning of these 4 properties what's your order of preference)? Again I think the new 3v is the king of the heap.

 

[XtianAus]

That is very interesting OBX, I didn't realize that different steels could affect the structure of the knife in different ways. I thought that once any knife reached a certain level of rust, they were on equal playing fields. What I mean is "but 3v doesn't seem to erode like 1095, 10x5, 01 and other high carbon steels when exposed to long term moisture."
I thought simply that the only difference when addressing corrosion is simply, how long does it take a particular knife to rust. I never knew that corrosion involved whether or not a particular steel would determine whether the structure of the knife is harmed. I thought all steels were equal.

Does your challenge to stainless steels and their fragile nature (well, in comparison to high carbon steels) extend even to the new and current 20cv HT? In a video labelled something along the lines of cold weather testing, Guy uses a gso 4.1 in 20cv pretty aggressively to pry, baton, hammer and all-round work it pretty damn hard on wood. The end result appears to have no damage whatsoever to the blade and it can still cut paper after. From that video, I believe Survive's 20cv takes a beating equal to a lot of other high carbon steel blades. Though I don't have experience with it myself. That video was uploaded about 2 years ago, which I think would be the old HT? If so, then the new HT I would expect, would surpass a lot of other carbon steels even moreso! Plus with the extra benefit of edge retention.
HOWEVER, I absolute agree with you 3V is much tougher either way, and knowing that the structure of the knife in the linked video was not to any disadvantage, I'd sure take 3V over 20CV, as long as it was not in the state of already being rusted. Even more so, with the new HT that offers quite a significant improvement in not only toughness but also corrosion resistance.
I just don't know if I agree that "the blade was coated I would CFV or 01 over 20cv because I believe the high carbon blades would have a less of a chance to chip when batoning and chopping."
That being said, you are much more knowledgeable than I am and I am certain that experience runs further in your direction. I disagree simply due to watching the cold weather testing and comparing it to my experiences with most high carbon steels.

If I had to pick only one steel but it could not be 3V, and could be anything else coated or uncoated, I'd pick INFI (the closest thing to 3V IMO) followed secondly by 20cv. That is based off my understanding of 20cv through reading and watching videos, not based off personal experience. My personal experience with most carbon steels however, is not that positive for the most part. An exception to that is SR101, which is a great all round steel minus its tendency to rust quite aggressively and easily. That said, it has sound toughness.

For rating the above 4 list, it's hard to do label them without grouping them together.
I'd probably have to say though:
Toughness/edge strength
Corrosion resistance
Edge retention
Ease of sharpening.

But I would never want to be in a situation with a knife that was king of only 1 department.
I believe the most important aspect is having a healthy balance between at least 3 if not all 4 areas.
For this reason, I'd take 3v over any steel, even INFI, because I believe it is one of the most balanced steels. It may lack in the resharpening department, but its top notch quality in the other 3 areas is unmatched imo.
INFI may potentially be king of toughness (which is my first priority), but I think that the minimal amount of toughness you lose when choosing 3V, is worth it as you gain quite a lot more edge retention.
It is more perfectly balanced as an overall steel imo than anything else. Corrosion resistance is probably equal and ease of sharpening goes INFI's way.
But I much prefer a knife in 3v that is as tough as nails and that can hold its edge far longer than a knife that is SLIGHTLY (only maybe) tougher, can be sharpened easier but cannot hold its edge as long. It would be a pain resharpening 3v, especially without proper tools, but if you have a knife of 3V, it will be excellent at resisting chips and damage and wont need sharpening nearly as often, plus could be touched up with something simple like stropping it on a leather belt. To anyone reading, I don't mean to turn this into a A vs B, I am simply stating my view on what qualities the most balanced steel posseses, what I look for and used an example of 2 of the most renowned and some of the best steels available to do so. I also think 20cv could be an extremely well balanced steel, particularly when paired with 3V as a primary user.
If I were allowed any but only 2 knives in any steel including multiples if I wish, it'd definitely be 3V & 20cv (for things like food prep and to reduce even the slightest chances of tetanus). If I could have any 3 steels, it would be either 2x D3v and 1x 20cv or D3v, Infi and 20cv.


Please know that I am sure 99% of people who stumble across this thread have more knowledge than me, these thoughts are only based a very limited amount of experience mixed with quite a lot of reading/viewing videos, tests and reviews, and are just my opinion, not experience and so I could easily be wrong in anything I have said.


All in all, I think I'd still take 20cv over the rust covered Gso10 from the original video, regardless of the fact that the structural integrity of the knife is still intact. This is because I think my subconscious misplaced sense of insecurity every time I see a rust covered knife, would remain despite the facts that should remove it. I really think that the mental aspects that arise with any knife or situation, can impact on the scenario or situation. If you do not have confidence in your blade, even if knowing the facts should straighten you out, you could be in trouble. I don't know if I could ever look at a blade covered in rust such as that Gso10 and have confidence despite the evidence that is contrary to that belief. Psychology can impact reality. But thats another topic for debate and probably the wrong place for it haha.
Lastly, I would take the new spec HT 3V over 20cv because looking at the corrosion results of the newest HT 1 year experiment, I do not have the same misplaced sense of insecurity. If that does not arise when looking at a knife abused by the weather for over a year, then it never will and D3V is king steel for that reason in addition to it having some of the best toughness and edge holding in existence imo.

YMMV

I hope I haven't rambled, I did get a little carried away in this very interesting topic haha.

Cheers.

~ Christian.

 

[jsarche]

Great post - thank you. For anyone who may know: I ordered a GSO 4.7 in CPM 3V on Dec. 8. Will this blade have the second-gen heat treatment?

It most likely wouldn't make a ton of difference for me - I take good care of my gear, I live in a semi-arid environment very far from the nearest salt water, and I don't get out in the woods nearly as much as I want - but I'm still curious.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Psybull]

jsarche That will have the improved heat treatment but not be the newest delta heat treat that will start on the 4.1s and after for 3v.

 

[Fancier]

OBX, I've never had a problem with rust on a knife, except for the one that I left sitting in my geology field kit next to a bottle of hydrochloric acid. Even that knife was salvageable, it just wasn't pretty anymore.
I've also never broken a knife so I'm not really concerned with toughness, or is that different from edge strength? You might be referring to hardness as a measure of edge strength, I'm not sure.
The knife has to take and hold an edge, but despite the fact that I'm posting on BF and I've bought a knife in just about every novelty alloy that has come along I'm more concerned with the comfort of the handle, which in my mind is where Survive shines.
In my case I'd carry the knife that is right for the task regardless of the alloy, unless I'm going to fishing in salt water.

 

[Karoi]

OBX - thanks for sharing your experiences with Guy and handling those knives!
It'd be interesting to see how much quicker those knives would corrode if two additional tests were performed in a high saline location such as the coast, and then a tropical region with very high humidity and rainfall. I think that there would eventually be some structural damage to the knives, BUT it could take quite a few years to occur even in those circumstances! Also, I can't see anyone wanting to do this to their precious S!K or CPK, so we can always keep hypothesising.....

CPM3V has a chromium content of 7.5% as opposed to 14% + for a stainless knife, so I'm assuming it takes a long time for structural damage to occur because of the micro structured (extremely fine grained) composition of the particles in the steel as a result of the HT process. Perhaps almost the opposite thing would happen to a high carbon (1095, O1) steel blade which has a very good coating or patina. Surface rust will take longer to occur, but eventually the coating and patina will wear away. Once the corrosion has set in, structural damage will most likely happen much quicker.

With regards to those 4 properties you mentioned, ease of maintenance/corrosion resistance is the only property that would change in ranking for me depending on which environment I'm in. So when I’m hiking or camping inland (not fishing and camping along the coast), corrosion resistance is much less of an issue

It would be great if a steel expert could add some add some more info to this thread, and correct me if said any nonsense!

 

[Karoi]

Great post - thank you. For anyone who may know: I ordered a GSO 4.7 in CPM 3V on Dec. 8. Will this blade have the second-gen heat treatment?

It most likely wouldn't make a ton of difference for me - I take good care of my gear, I live in a semi-arid environment very far from the nearest salt water, and I don't get out in the woods nearly as much as I want - but I'm still curious.

This is part of a post from Nathan Carothers who developed the Delta protocal in collaboration with Guy Seiford and Dan Keffeler.

Between Delta and the previous tweak, the corrosion resistance is the same, the abrasive wear resistance is the same, the gross toughness (resistance to breaking) is the same, the primary difference is in edge stability, particularly resistance to damage in rough use, which results in better edge retention and more tolerance to accidently hitting a rock or a tough knot etc.

Your 4.7 is the "previous tweak"

 

[Revolverrodger]

In real world use in a blade the suze of the gso 4.7 delta vs second gen HT is not really that important

 

[XtianAus]

*Post mistake*

Disregard this post

 

[supertac916]

I have Survive! blades in all of the listed steels and have used some on the coast of California to the Sierra Nevada's. I honestly don't think there is a big difference when using them for my purposes. I did notice some surface rust on the Gen 1 4.1 in 3v I use most often after putting it in the sheath when wet with salt water. However, the rust wiped off mostly with a rag and after taking it home, using fine steel wool, and oiling it there are only a few minor staining spots. I did pickup a great deal on a user first production 4.7 in CFV and the original owner resides in Georgia, which from my understand can get humid. It was a "User" with some rust spots on the edge and some minor rolls. However, even with relatively hard use it was easy to clean up and touch up the edge.

At least for me in the dozen or so Survive! blades that I own and a few more on order. I don't think I will ever really notice a significant difference in the performance of these steel types. Most of my uses are for weekend trips, day hikes, and at most a weeks use in the Sierra Nevada's or along the California coast. I always clean my knives and touch up my edges because I also carry a DC4 on my sheaths and strop in my pack. That and I bring other tools with me like a Silky saw and sometimes an GB SFA or WH. At the end of the day, I'd use either of the knives in Guy's video or the 20cv because I don't think the surface rust will actually impact the performance for regular and normal camp uses. If I were to try out for the show "Alone" and may have to live with only one knife for several months living off the land, than I may think about the different steel options. That kind of use or "Surviving" isn't really practical for me personally

 

[Riz!]

For me, I would take 3V for any larger (+5) inch blade and 20CV for smaller ones. Yes I would use the rusty knives in the pics. For me toughness is more about not chipping or micro chipping the edge than about breaking the knife entirely. "Edge retention" is usually the word that is used to describe abrasion resistance. In reality I believe "edge retention" should be the ability to hold an edge based on the combined attributes of toughness AND abrasion resistance. WHAT YOU ARE CUTTING directly effects the edge retention. For example... whittiling wood and torqing the chip of wood out causes lateral stress and requires toughness to keep from chipping. Cutting open bags of concrete all day on a jobsite requires abrasion resistance. There isnt much lateral stress (if any) but the edge is being abraded away just like when you run it across a sharpening stone. The difference from that and sharpening is there is no consistent angle being applied to the abrasion. Corrosion resistance is important in edge retention because the super thin steel at the apex of an edge can and does actually corrode away. On most steels its not a noticable amount, but it happens. Most folks look at corrosion resistance on the flats of the blade or the entire knife rusting away to dust and dont include it in the edge retention factor (Including me, due to its minimal effect on the edge, of most steels, compared to what a human can detect without instruments)

A super tough knife that lacks abrasion resistance may never deform or may flatten a little or just roll when torqing the blade, but use that knife to cut cardboard (which is pretty abrasive. I believe there is silica in it) and you will wear away that edge apex faster than a fart disappears on a windy day. A highly wear resistant steel may cut stuff like cardboard for days and never need a touch up. torque that blade in some wood or when cutting a tight, heavy duty ziptie and you may chip that knife. What most people need and want is a balance of the two qualities, the sum of which equals "edge retention".



So my point is that application and balance matters.


My next statement is a generalization... for ME, I have found 3V to be the absolute best combination of the attributes of corrosion resistance, wear resistance and toughness. Its why I choose 3V whenever its an option. The uniqueness of 3V's attributes allows you to make bomb-proof knives when made from a thick stock. It also allows one to take a knife that is made of a medium stock and run it thinner and still have a durable blade with less weight and better geometry. WHICH IS WHY I WANT MY 4.5 REALLY REALL REALLY BAD.

I am dying for a folder in 3V that isnt some overbuilt brick. I would be over the moon if Spyderco would do a sprint run Military in CPM 3V(especially if it was run a little hard or had the D3V HT)

 

[chiral.grolim]

So this begs the question, how would you rank the following: edge strength, edge retention and ease of sharpening and ease of maintenance/corrosion resistance (meaning of these 4 properties what's your order of preference)? Again I think the new 3v is the king of the heap.

Quick answer for me:

1) edge strength based on the steel itself, i.e. the hardness/toughness of the matrix, NOT because of stouter geometry
2) ease of sharpening
3) edge-retention (abrasion resistance)
4) corrosion resistance - last because I have seen how even a quick forced patina can dramatically improve protection on a basic carbon-steel blade

Quick answer for my wife

1) edge strength
2) corrosion resistance - second because she hates to see that rust and has never met a patina she can't conquer
3) edge-retention
4) ease of sharpening (she's going to make me do it anyway, why would she care )

SO while I will take D3V or 2nd-gen 3V and then coated CruV before 20CV, she'll take the 20CV first and CruV last.

 

[OBX351]

OBX, I've never had a problem with rust on a knife, except for the one that I left sitting in my geology field kit next to a bottle of hydrochloric acid. Even that knife was salvageable, it just wasn't pretty anymore.
I've also never broken a knife so I'm not really concerned with toughness, or is that different from edge strength? You might be referring to hardness as a measure of edge strength, I'm not sure.
The knife has to take and hold an edge, but despite the fact that I'm posting on BF and I've bought a knife in just about every novelty alloy that has come along I'm more concerned with the comfort of the handle, which in my mind is where Survive shines.
In my case I'd carry the knife that is right for the task regardless of the alloy, unless I'm going to fishing in salt water.

Toughness for me means tensile and compressive strength. I mean that 3v is stronger against force in all directions than 20cv.

There's something to be said about using a knife with a comfortable handle that doesn't fatigue or create hot spots. +1 to that! Also, I totally agree, the right knife for the job.

 

[Fancier]

Nathan is claiming for D3V an increased durability at the knife edge at the same Rockwell hardness due in an improvement in the microstructure of the 3V.
I'm having a bit of a problem wrapping my mind around exactly what measurable property that corresponds to.
I'm not sure that it means that 3V is stronger than 20CV at the same hardness.
I don't know how much difference that is going to make in real world tasks unless you routinely cut sheet metal or nails.
I am looking forward to playing with knives with both of the heat treatments!
The 4.7 seems to be Survive's preferred model for testing out new alloys, but I'm afraid it is going to be a long time before any 4.7 with D3V come out.
In the meantime I'll have to be content comparing a 4.7 in 3V to a 4.1 in D3V, whenever they both arrive.

 

[Revolverrodger]

Nathan is claiming for D3V an increased durability at the knife edge at the same Rockwell hardness due in an improvement in the microstructure of the 3V.
I'm having a bit of a problem wrapping my mind around exactly what measurable property that corresponds to.
I'm not sure that it means that 3V is stronger than 20CV at the same hardness.
I don't know how much difference that is going to make in real world tasks unless you routinely cut sheet metal or nails.
I am looking forward to playing with knives with both of the heat treatments!
The 4.7 seems to be Survive's preferred model for testing out new alloys, but I'm afraid it is going to be a long time before any 4.7 with D3V come out.
In the meantime I'll have to be content comparing a 4.7 in 3V to a 4.1 in D3V, whenever they both arrive.

I will be very interested in your comparison of the 3V4.7 vs D3V4.1
I sispect that with regular use the differences may be difficult to see

 

[Karoi]

I will be very interested in your comparison of the 3V4.7 vs D3V4.1
I sispect that with regular use the differences may be difficult to see

I'm also interested to see the result of the comparison!

You might have seen Nathan's cutting and durability demonstration video of the field knife (with a 15 DPS edge) where he whittles a piece of osage orange, then the knife is still able to push cut through paper, and as Riz said......

WHAT YOU ARE CUTTING directly effects the edge retention. For example... whittiling wood and torqing the chip of wood out causes lateral stress and requires toughness to keep from chipping.

Between Delta and the previous tweak the primary difference is in edge stability, particularly resistance to damage in rough use, which results in better edge retention.
Since I'm in a region where there a many hardwood trees, I think I'll end up appreciating the improved attributes of this particular steel when I'm carving and whittling these types of wood.

Also - "Guy, Nathan, and Dan decided to differentiate their work from previous work because it is demonstrably different and better than industry standard and what came before it".....so that statement in itself says something!

The uniqueness of 3V's attributes allows you to make bomb-proof knives when made from a thick stock. It also allows one to take a knife that is made of a medium stock and run it thinner and still have a durable blade with less weight and better geometry. WHICH IS WHY I WANT MY 4.5 REALLY REALL REALLY BAD.

I agree with you 110%. It would be reeally nice if Guy could make another 1 or 2 models with spines around 1/8" thick.

 

[Mo2]

i would either have the blade cerakoted or just apply fluid flim or equivalent oil to the blade to prevent rust.

 

[MatthewSB]

So, in my long winded way, this begs the question. Would you take the knives in the above video into the field long term? Or do you believe you'd be better off with a CMP 20CV blade?

I would rather have 3V than 20CV for long term field use, because 20CV is very difficult to sharpen without a professional quality setup (Wicked Edge or similar).

Even better than 3V would be CPM-154, it is a true 'stainless' steel that is very easy to sharpen. I don't worry about 'toughness', most things that will damage one still will also damage the others. I never damage a knife's edge if I avoid contacting rocks/sand/metal, and I always suffer damage from contact with rocks/sand/metal no matter what steel I'm using.

 

[Revolverrodger]

Just to put things in perspective I have knives in 1095 and 440A that have lived to very heavy use (aand abuse ?) and are still great. These new steels are good... but not essential.

Old timers could survive long term with pretty any modern steel, heck they did it with old crap steels

 

[OBX351]

Nathan is claiming for D3V an increased durability at the knife edge at the same Rockwell hardness due in an improvement in the microstructure of the 3V.
I'm having a bit of a problem wrapping my mind around exactly what measurable property that corresponds to.
I'm not sure that it means that 3V is stronger than 20CV at the same hardness.
I don't know how much difference that is going to make in real world tasks unless you routinely cut sheet metal or nails.
I am looking forward to playing with knives with both of the heat treatments!
The 4.7 seems to be Survive's preferred model for testing out new alloys, but I'm afraid it is going to be a long time before any 4.7 with D3V come out.
In the meantime I'll have to be content comparing a 4.7 in 3V to a 4.1 in D3V, whenever they both arrive.

Fancier -I don't understand or need to know the mechanics of the microstructure of 3V. But if Nathan (and Guy - 'cus I asked him) says it's going to be more durable then I am sure it will be.

To answer your question "I'm not sure that it means that 3V is stronger than 20CV at the same hardness". It is my understanding that Rockwell measures hardness not tensil or compressive strength. At the same Rockwell 3v holds an edge longer and it handles compression and lateral stresses better than 20cv. I've witnessed it over the past 3+ years spending hundreds of hours of cutting, carving and batoning wood only with my GSOs and 3v simply holds up better than 20cv. I find that I have to resharpen 20cv more often than 3v. Also over the same amount of time on the same piece of wood I find that my 3v blade might have a few small microfolds and some dulling where as my 20cv blades had a good deal more dulling, microfolds and even small crescent chips. 3v is just a stronger more durable steel than 20cv.

It's the same with SR-101. I've tested my RMD SR-101 against my first generation 5.1 in 3v. Both knives have the same Rockwell. I spent the same time on chopping, carving & cutting treated pine and oak bevels and batoning seasoned oak with both knives. I found the 5.1 was able to work longer between sharpenings and had less microfolding than the SR-101. To the credit of both knives neither had any chipping of the edge. But the 3v outlasted and out performed SR-101. AND the 5.1 had a thinner cutting edge!! For the record I am not picking on one and praising the other.

Guy tried to explain the microstructure of 3v to me once and it went over my head. He also told me that some or all of steels are cryo treated and to add strength and hardness. Maybe this is part of what he was talking about?

Anyway to close out my rant, I like 20cv but I just don't need it for my medium to big knives. I like it in my smaller knives because I can make them really sharp with a strop. However I wound't miss 20cv if I could just have 3v, unless Guy made a fishing/filet knife then I would want it in 20cv because I fish and boat in saltwater.