WSKO BGA vs Hand-Powered Systems for Reprofiling

[mhutch]

Hey folks,

Basically what I want to know is how any of the guided-angle systems, or even freehand sharpening, might compare to the WSKO BGA mainly in terms of time required. I picked up a WSKO BGA mainly for reprofiling edges and doing heavy grinding. I still hone free-hand or with a Spyderco Sharpmaker for the most part. What I've found with the Work Sharp thus far is that:
1. It generates enough dust that it really can't be used indoors
2. Belts don't necessarily wear out quickly but they lose their initial aggressiveness pretty quickly and as they get more dull you have to use more and more pressure which ends up making an increasingly convex bevel.
3. In order to go slow enough to not risk overheating a blade I have to go slow enough that a hand-powered system might not take much more time

It's the last point that I'm trying to figure out. If something like a Hapstone could be 80% as efficient as the Work Sharp but be usable indoors and not require me to replace belts frequently then it might be a better system for me. I've reprofiled some larger blades using coarse bench stones like a Norton Crystolon and I'd say a coarse stone probably cuts about as fast as the Work Sharp with an 80 grit belt if you're able to grind back and forth on the bench stone but when I do that I lose precision and end up with a sloppy edge. I'm hoping that a guided-angle system like a Hapstone can remove enough of the skill required to allow me to grind quickly.

Thoughts from those of you who have experimented with different methods?

Thank you all for your time

 

[scottc3]

1. It generates enough dust that it really can't be used indoors

2. Belts don't necessarily wear out quickly but they lose their initial aggressiveness pretty quickly and as they get more dull you have to use more and more pressure which ends up making an increasingly convex bevel.

Scratching my head here, wondering if your using the WSKO OR BGA? Are you reprofiling or just honing / touching up? And what knife steel is causing this much dust?

3. In order to go slow enough to not risk overheating a blade I have to go slow enough that a hand-powered system might not take much more time

Instructions call for consistently pulling thru WSKO, or running edge over wider BGA belt at so many inches per second if memory serves. How are you "slowing down?"

I've reprofiled some larger blades using coarse bench stones like a Norton Crystolon and I'd say a coarse stone probably cuts about as fast as the Work Sharp with an 80 grit belt if you're able to grind back and forth on the bench stone but when I do that I lose precision and end up with a sloppy edge.

Check out how fast a practiced hand can get a coarse edge on 60 grit BYXCO "Manticore" Bench Stone

BYXCO "Manticore" Bench Stone

www.baryonyxknife.com

I'm hoping that a guided-angle system like a Hapstone can remove enough of the skill required to allow me to grind quickly.

I read frustration in your post, and would recommend you master the tools you own before moving on. Follow WSKO-BGA INSTRUCTIONS step by step, for both belt kits using beater knives.
Guided systems take less skill then free hand, but you can only get fast free hand by going slow at the beginning. With time comes skill and with skill comes speed.

Norton Crystolon

This SIC stone is 120 grit, so plenty coarse to set edge.

 

[mhutch]

Scratching my head here, wondering if your using the WSKO OR BGA? Are you reprofiling or just honing / touching up? And what knife steel is causing this much dust?

Instructions call for consistently pulling thru WSKO, or running edge over wider BGA belt at so many inches per second if memory serves. How are you "slowing down?"

Check out how fast a practiced hand can get a coarse edge on 60 grit BYXCO "Manticore" Bench Stone

BYXCO "Manticore" Bench Stone

www.baryonyxknife.com

I read frustration in your post, and would recommend you master the tools you own before moving on. Follow WSKO-BGA INSTRUCTIONS step by step, for both belt kits using beater knives.
Guided systems take less skill then free hand, but you can only get fast free hand by going slow at the beginning. With time comes skill and with skill comes speed.

This SIC stone is 120 grit, so plenty coarse to set edge.

Thanks for the reply Scott (assuming that's your name).

I am only using the BGA, and I use it to reprofile. My general regimen is to do heavy grinding/profiling with it and then I hone a microbevel or small secondary bevel by hand. As for the dust, I don't mean to imply it is creating a ton. It certainly isn't much compared to a benchgrinder or belt sander but it is enough that I don't use the BGA inside. The BGA doesn't really create more metal dust than any other method-the same amount of metal is being removed either way-the main difference I've observed is that with free-hand grinding on a benchstone or using another hand-powered method the dust mostly stays on the stone and is easy to wipe off. With the BGA some of it ends up all over and around the machine, in the air, etc. Recently I was reprofiling a small machete (Esee Libertariat, 10" 1075 blade) and that has been pretty messy but there's also a lot of metal being removed. So the dust issue is really not that big a deal honestly but hand-powered methods certainly seem easier to clean up which is a plus for me.

Slowing down--with the WSKO you can adjust the speed and I generally use the slowest setting (1200 SFPM I think). I also dunk the blade in water frequently and give it time to cool off between passes if I feel it warming at all. I don't slow down on the passes themselves--my understanding is that maintaining a certain speed on each pass is important in preventing overheating. I could certainly make the whole process go much more quickly by cranking the belt speed up and taking less breaks between passes but I am cautious of overheating after reading some of the studies and blog posts that have been discussed on here in the past.

From what you're saying it sounds like maybe I should just suck it up and put in the time to learn how to free-hand sharpen more effectively. Right now I can get a decent edge free-handing but it takes me a while because I have to pay more attention with each pass to keep the angle steady. With a smaller knife-4" blade or less-it still goes pretty quickly and isn't too tedious. Reprofiling that Esee machete has been a frustratingly long endeavor but maybe it would be that way regardless of what method I use.

 

[scottc3]

Yes Scott, wanderer in old Welsh dialect M mhutch

a small machete (Esee Libertariat, 10" 1075 blade)

Interesting turn of phrase, 10 inches and small-
HeavyHanded says practicing with an 8 inch edge is a good way to get better at free hand. Check out this thread, where he uses power to get a parang ready for free handing:

For those of you that hand sharpen

grinding is also for being faster

www.bladeforums.com

hand-powered methods certainly seem easier to clean up which is a plus for me

It would be interesting to wear an N95 dust mask and see how much dust it captures. I cannot tell you how much dust I have eaten working my way to making a living with my brains, exercise physiologist, instead of my shoulders. I am glad God gave us ~5 times more lung capacity then we need!

Slowing down--with the WSKO you can adjust the speed and I generally use the slowest setting (1200 SFPM I think).

Heads up, When reporting doing exactly as your doing, HeavyHanded told me, it is better to use medium speed so I don't burn motor up. Makes sense, though small external high CFM fan would allow slower rpm, and one reason I got the WSKO was the variable speed.

From what you're saying it sounds like maybe I should just suck it up and put in the time to learn how to free-hand sharpen more effectively.

My experience as an old man looking back is that much that was accomplished was hard, sometimes painful to push through. Later on in the journey, students and kids paying attention, got tangible object lessons of the truth and fruit of the principle. Keep at it, be encouraged.

 

[000Robert]

I bought a Wicked Edge 130 for reprofiling and sharpening knives, chisels, and scissors. I have a WSKOBGA but only use it for lawnmower blades and fitting small steel parts like firing pins and such. You can overheat a blades edge and not even feel it in the blade. Here's a good article from Knife Steel Nerds.

 

[mhutch]

I did a little experimenting the other day. I marked a blade with a sharpie and then evaluated how many passes it takes to completely remove all of the ink using my WSKO BGA with an 80 grit belt and then with a Norton Crystolon (120 grit I think). Long story short, the Norton stone removes more steel more quickly. I wasn't using a brand new belt on the WSKO so had I done that the WSKO certainly would have been a little faster than it was but my experience with ceramic belts is that they are super aggressive at first but lose that initial aggressiveness very quickly. So my thought process is unless I plan on replacing belts every 100 passes or so-which I don't-it isn't accurate to use a brand new belt for comparison. Based on this I think I can safely conclude that a skilled sharpener with an aggressive bench stone could reprofile a blade more quickly than I can using my WSKO.

The problem with the WSKO-and the advantage of a bench stone-all comes down to pressure. You can't apply a lot of pressure using the WSKO without putting a big bow (curve) in the belt since it isn't supported by a platen. While I suppose you could bear down on the belt if you wanted to, if you do that you end up creating a much more convex bevel and you also end up with a steeper angle than the angle indicator shows. I tried doing this with the angle indicator at 15* and the actual edge was closer to 18*. The other issue created by using increased pressure, perhaps the bigger issue, is that the more you bear down on the belt the larger the area of contact between the belt and the blade. This does two things. First, it somewhat negates the extra pressure you are applying as the belt acts like a spring. More importantly, it means more metal being abraded which ultimately means more time required to get to the desired end product which is a bevel at whatever particular angle you intend. Hopefully I explained that all adequately, it is difficult to do without illustrations. Anyway, the corresponding advantage of a bench stone-especially a slow-wearing silicon carbide oil stone-is that you can apply a lot of pressure and since the stone is rigid and slow-wearing the bevel angle won't be affected. I don't have a lot of experience with oil stones and I am used to using diamond and water stone in which case you have to be careful not to apply too much pressure. When I figured out that you can apply a lot more pressure to an oil stone it made a big difference.

That conclusion reached, I just ordered a Hapstone R2 to experiment with. It may not end up being any faster than the WSKO but I've been wanting to play with one for a while and I just reached a major career milestone and I was able to successfully convince myself that I deserve a present. I'll update this thread when I come to some conclusions.

 

[scottc3]

That conclusion reached, I just ordered a Hapstone R2 to experiment with. It may not end up being any faster than the WSKO but I've been wanting to play with one for a while and I just reached a major career milestone and I was able to successfully convince myself that I deserve a present. I'll update this thread when I come to some conclusions.

Congrats on career milestone AND ordering the R2. Looking forward to your thoughts and experiences.