WW2 Vintage Japanese Sword - Info Needed

U

UrQuattro

Joined
Mar 8, 2011
Messages
51
Hey all,

So, the story behind this sword from what I remember is that, when my grandfather was in ww2, he got it in japan. Supposedly he pulled it off of a dead guy, but I kinda figure that story is more than slightly embellished.*

It was passed down to my father from him and a few years ago, down to me.*

Unfortunately, it's condition isn't particularly good. The blade has chips on the edge, and black spots of corrosion on it. The edge is quite sharp, but not as sharp as one of my high-end modern steel knives - but it comes close.*

I know a little bit about swords, but not much at all.*

I looked at the tang (I know there should be another name for it) and found no markings that would be signatures. The original rust is there and hasn't been cleaned off. There are two holes in it, one is where the small bamboo "dowel"goes. It's been removed before, poorly I might add, and the ink that was on it is no longer present.*

The whole scabbard and handle is made of bamboo it seems, but I'm not sure.*

Anyway, Id REALLY LOVE to find out what it says on the sheath. Oh, and it appears to have a tanto tip, and the full length of the sword from the tip to the end of the handle is almost 36"...

I'll post a few pics. I hope someone can give me info about it's origin, history, the message written on it and I suppose if there is any monetary value, though I can tell you that it's sentimental value is ginormous. I have it mounted on the wall above the door to my bedroom, where I can see it as I fall asleep at night. Hehe.*

Thanks in advance.*

This one is in the sheath with a measuring tape
http://gallery.me.com/ur.quattro/100001/sheathedmeasure.jpg


This is with it off:
http://gallery.me.com/ur.quattro/100001/unsheathmeasure.jpg

Here is a closeup of the grind of the tip:
http://gallery.me.com/ur.quattro/100001/tantogrind.jpg

The writing on the handle:
http://gallery.me.com/ur.quattro/100001/handlewriting.jpg

First part of writing on sheath:
http://gallery.me.com/ur.quattro/100001/upperwriting.jpg

Second section of writing on sheath:
http://gallery.me.com/ur.quattro/100001/lowerwriting.jpg

I hope that these are enough.

Thanks in advance to everyone.

Michael
 
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Many fine Japanese swords have a storage scabbard and handle. Some late swords were carried in less ceremonial outfitting for stealth purposes anyway.
 
Remove the bamboo peg in the handle (it should push out), remove the handle, and then look for any writing on the blade itself
 
I already did... There are no markings that I saw at all. I said it in my original post, but it's kind of buried in the middle.

When I removed it, there was the expected rust, but it was smooth on both sides. I'm assuming that if there were a mark, that it would be visible through the corrosion, right?

Thanks again.

Michael
 
I'm sorry UrQuattro, I read your post too quickly and missed that part (oldtimers syndrome). I assume that the tang (Nakago) was only punched once? Sometimes multiple punches can be slight clues. Some WW2 swords were painted on the tang also, so again, a photograph might help in discerning slight evidence? Again, sorry for overlooking what you had clearly stated.
 
Actually, it was punched twice, a few inches apart. This external handle is using the closer one to be attached to.

I'll take a few pics of the tang in a couple minutes and post the links.

And don't worry about it. No biggie. I figured I should take a pic of the tang, but didn't due to the lack of marks that I could see.

Michael
 
Hey again,

I have the pics of the tang/nagato now. I was wrong in that the current handle uses the closer punch. Its the farther one.

Anyway here they are:

"left" side of Nagato along with a tape measure for scale:
http://gallery.me.com/ur.quattro/100001/tangmeasure.jpg

Here's the other side:
http://gallery.me.com/ur.quattro/100001/tangright.jpg

A closeup view:
http://gallery.me.com/ur.quattro/100001/tangclose.jpg

The Nagato with handle:
http://gallery.me.com/ur.quattro/100001/tangwithsheath.jpg

The spine:
http://gallery.me.com/ur.quattro/100001/tangback.jpg


That's it, folks. The only other place I can think of a signature being is under the brass part. But i don't have the skill or courage for that - if it's possible anyway.

Thank you again.

Michael
 
Oh, and nobody has any luck with a translation of the writing on the casing?

Ive been dying to know for so long.

Michael
 
I think you have a fake blade in a genuine shirasaya(wooden scabbard and handle).

The nakago(tang) isn't correctly shaped and seems to have a forced rust patina on it.
The kissaki(tip) of the sword is the wrong shape and very reminiscent of the Chinese fakes out there.

If you're going to post on NMB for verification, try and get some overall shots of the blade shape.
Hopefully they'll tell you it isn't fake, but...
 
Okay... I'm not sure how that can be given that me grandfather brought it back from WW2. How can the rust then be fake?

It literally had been sitting in the closet of my grandfather's house until my dad inherited it, and it stayed in the same closet, save for the times that he let me look at it. And then I inherited it in 2005.

Was china making fakes then? The sword fits perfectly in the case, snug with no play.
Michael
 
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I've no comment on the history of the blade, only that I think it is fake. That's only my opinion and I'm not trying to ruffle feathers.

Rust is very easily induced. Add water and air...
 
What I'm saying is if the blade is faked, then it is modern(relatively), therefore the tang will be fresh steel as it has just been shaped.
The fakers rust the tang to make it appear old.

Compare the rust on yours to a genuine example.
This site, Aoi-Art, takes some good shots. Try this for comparison.
http://www.aoi-art.com/kantei/kantei79.html
 
Weird. Youve got me on that. I honestly don't know why the tang has so much rust. My grandfather was in the navy and I believe stationed off of Okinawa. That's why I doubt his battle story. My guess is that he bought it, or maybe got it from a friend who did see some action.

Honestly, with the condition that the rest of the blade is in, I never thought it was worth more than a couple hundred at the most. I just have the family connection that gives me so much of an attachment, so I apologize if I reacted harshly.

I, too, think that the case must be real. When looking at its construction, I was amazed by what appears to be something that must have taken a LONG time to make.
Hehe... Still seeking a japanese reader!!! :)
 
China have been knocking out fakes for some years but I don't think it goes back to the war period.

I didn't think you reacted too harshly considering I just told you a family heirloom was possibly fake.
Bear in mind it's only my opinion. NMB will give you more experienced opinions and also an avenue to have the saya translated.
I'll have a crack at the translation but it takes me some time.

Having had a further look at the shirasaya(scabbard) there is a chance that that is faked as well...
Japanese shirasaya work tends to be made with a hexagon cross section as opposed to round/oval.
Again, it's not hard to age wood and the Chinese share the same written characters as the Japanese.
 
Do you think that the issue could be that maybe my grandfather bought it instead? I'm not sure why he would do that... I mean, he was pulled away from his wife and drafted into the navy, spending most of his time on the radio of the ship, hearing the last words of his buddies as they called for help.

I dunno. I wish I knew more about how it was procured, but I have no way of doing it. Grrr. The thing I DO. Know is that the newest it could be is WW2. I have a comic he drew that dates in 1944.

Michael
 
I can't comment on its history, unfortunately.
I see it's up on the NMB now so let's hope my opinion gets overridden and you have better news.

Re. this pic - http://gallery.me.com/ur.quattro#100001/lowerwriting.jpg
The four kanji read SHI(?) TO(?) SUE YOSHI
I'm not 100% on the first two but confident on the last two. Possibly a name - Shito Sueyoshi? Sayagaki(scabbard writing) can refer to owners names and addresses or can be an attribution by someone, whether knowledgeable or not.
Still working on the rest...
 
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