WWII japanese sword question

Y

yodog

Joined
May 9, 2004
Messages
79
I was watching a PBS Special on the surrender of japan. Were the swords the officers carried production swords? and were the actually considered weapons to be used, or just a symbol of rank.
Thanks
 
Many were production swords of higher or lower quality depending on the rank of the officer, the expense he went to and what period of the war it was. Others were family blades some very very old indeed.
 
All about money from the beginning of WWII...the more money you had, or family had, then the better sword that officer carried. The machine made ones are pretty good early on in the war, Keith Larmen and Ted Tenold have mentioned on the bugei forum that WAY back when JSA was picking up in the US that old gunto's were remounted as tamashigiri blades.
 
yodog said:
I was watching a PBS Special on the surrender of japan. Were the swords the officers carried production swords? and were the actually considered weapons to be used, or just a symbol of rank.
Thanks
Click to expand...

Japanese officers trained in both kendo and kenjutsu, and made use of their skills on occaison in HTH skirmishes. Escrima GM Leo Giron countered samurai swords with his bolo, when fighting the Japanese in WWII.
 
kenjutsu I can understand but I see no benifit in japanese officers being taught kendo and highly doubt they were! Kendo is a MODERN sport, with formal rules and lacking in the finer points of true japanese swordsmanship. Kenjutsu with bokken will give you true harnessed skills with a blade, kendo IMO would not have been taught, and unless I had further evidence to support that I'd be inclined to disagree.

From what I have seen in pictures from WWII training camps within japan, and in books I have they were taught the fundementals of MJER Iaido (basic drawing and sheathing, and the various cutting techniques), Kenjutsu and that the higher officers were already highly skilled with the blade. At this point in japan the old ways were still intact despite the meiji reformation. :)
 
Robert.B said:
kenjutsu I can understand but I see no benifit in japanese officers being taught kendo and highly doubt they were! Kendo is a MODERN sport, with formal rules and lacking in the finer points of true japanese swordsmanship. Kenjutsu with bokken will give you true harnessed skills with a blade, kendo IMO would not have been taught, and unless I had further evidence to support that I'd be inclined to disagree.

From what I have seen in pictures from WWII training camps within japan, and in books I have they were taught the fundementals of MJER Iaido (basic drawing and sheathing, and the various cutting techniques), Kenjutsu and that the higher officers were already highly skilled with the blade. At this point in japan the old ways were still intact despite the meiji reformation. :)
Click to expand...

Kendo was certainly established long before WWII, so I don't know how "modern" it is.

In any case, it at least helps a fighter hone his sense of timing and distance, due to the free-sparring aspect.

I realize that high-level kenjutsu kata has a "free" element too, but AFAIK, Japanese officers trained in both kenjutsu and kendo.
 
Kendo came in the 1800's and like I said was a sport more so than a martial training...thus why women were allowed to do it.
 
Robert.B said:
Kendo came in the 1800's and like I said was a sport more so than a martial training...thus why women were allowed to do it.
Click to expand...

Check your history.

According to Modern Bujutsu & Budo by Donn F. Draeger, kendo started in the 17th century, with the founding of the Abe Ryu. The first Japanese swordsman traditionally credited with employing the shinai was Hikida Bungoro (c. 1537-1606). In the 1750s, Nakanishi Chuta made modifications to the shinai and kendo armor.

So, you're off with your claim about kendo starting "in the 1800s".

In addition, just because something is ostensibly a "sport" doesn't mean that it doesn't have actual martial applications.
 
And you know about the basic obliteration of alot of older ryu in japan after the meiji reformation? that when WWII came in Budo arts were only re-emerging back with the introduction of Judo as we know it into the school system (phys ed basically) and kendo with alot of offensive and kenjutsu kata removed.

The primary goal of kendo is to improve oneself through the study of the sword. Kendo also has a strong sporting aspect with big tournaments avidly followed by the Japanese public. Thus kendo could be considered the philosophical/sporting aspect of Japanese swordsmanship. Since the early 1700s virtually all ryuha teaching kenjutsu have promoted it as a means to self-improvement and emphasised the philosophical aspects of the art.

I knew of it being around before the 1800's, so your use of the condescending "check your history" is uncalled for. I was merely stating Kendo as it is and was known during the WWII period. Kenjutsu however focuses on sword form and combat, the use of bokken and shinken show its emphasis on cutting and live form kata.

My sensei is a ranking member of the Australian Kendo Remei, and while I dont take much part in Kendo I *first hand* know of how practical it would be martially. As mentioned its more about a philosophical training. :)
 
Robert.B said:
And you know about the basic obliteration of alot of older ryu in japan after the meiji reformation? that when WWII came in Budo arts were only re-emerging back with the introduction of Judo as we know it into the school system (phys ed basically) and kendo with alot of offensive and kenjutsu kata removed.

The primary goal of kendo is to improve oneself through the study of the sword. Kendo also has a strong sporting aspect with big tournaments avidly followed by the Japanese public. Thus kendo could be considered the philosophical/sporting aspect of Japanese swordsmanship. Since the early 1700s virtually all ryuha teaching kenjutsu have promoted it as a means to self-improvement and emphasised the philosophical aspects of the art.

I knew of it being around before the 1800's, so your use of the condescending "check your history" is uncalled for. I was merely stating Kendo as it is and was known during the WWII period.
Click to expand...

But that is not what you said.

You simply stated,
Kendo came in the 1800's
Click to expand...

I, in turn, replied in regards to what you actually posted. If I offended you, I apologize.

However, FWIW, your dismissal of "sport" systems sounded a tad condescending--you seem to have inferred that "sport" approaches aren't "martial". While that may be true in some cases, it is not true in others. In fact, many truly "martial" (ie., combative) arts have made use of a strong "sport" element within their curriculum. Look at the 18th century English prizefighters, who tested their sword and pugilistic skills in public bouts. These guys were certainly no joke, and they are just one of many examples.

Kenjutsu however focuses on sword form and combat, the use of bokken and shinken show its emphasis on cutting and live form kata.

My sensei is a ranking member of the Australian Kendo Remei, and while I dont take much part in Kendo I *first hand* know of how practical it would be martially. As mentioned its more about a philosophical training. :)
Click to expand...

I'm simply looking at this issue from the aspect of arts that contain a free-sparring element (which kendo obviously does). Kenjutsu exponents constantly point out that cutting with a real sword and striking with a shinai are two very different things, which is fine (parallels of that sort exist in the West too--compare the "downright blows" of Elizabethan swordplay or even early modern saber fencing's moulinet to the so-called "cut" used in modern sport saber fencing). I'm not discounting the fact that kendo has limitations. However, free-sparring--despite often having many rules and limitations--still develops one's sense of timing and distance to a high degree, and a sense of timing and distance are essential attributes for "real" fighting. In the West, it's called being aware of "fencing measure", and in the Japan, I believe they refer to it as ma-ai (combative-engagement distance).

Anyway, I stated that Japanese officers trained in both kendo AND kenjutsu. If you can provide a source which indicates that they didn't train in the former, then please post it for my edification.

Much Obliged,

S_e_P
 
Well, I don't know jack **** about kendo or kenjutsu or what Japanese officers trained in. With all due respect to Robert B., however, just because something is a sport does not mean that it cannot and will not be incorporated into martial training. Whether or not kendo taught valuable swordmanship skills (and whether or not swordmanship was valuable at all) might be debatable, but this cannot be used as a historical argument.

A comparable example can be found in the Army today. For cadets at West Point - future officers - boxing is part of the core curriculum (or Corps curriculum...). Some boxing skills are more important than others. For example, a boxers defense isn't ideal in many situations and you aren't going to be in a long standing fight with an enemy, but knowing how to hit someone fast and hard is very useful. For the record, we are also require to do the standard military CQC martial arts too.
 
you said it yourself, you know jack about it where as I've taken kendo before moving to Iaido and Jodo...unless if they taught kendo with the kenjutsu kata like the OLD ryu its pretty much just a sport, and training in bettering ones mind. Not learning how to cut, how to draw, how to sheath, how to keep proper form in battle situations.
 
yodog said:
Wow :eek: Ask a simple question LOL thanks for the answers :cool:
Click to expand...

Check out Secrets of Giron Arnis Escrima by Antonio Somera, which gives some info on GM Giron's experiences in fighting against Japanese swordsmen and bayonet-armed infantry, in WWII. GM Giron's memoires, Memories Ride the Ebb of Tide, is also excellent, as it describes those experiences in more detail. Somera's book can be purchased at any Borders or B & N, whereas Memories... has to be ordered from Kris Cutlery (unless it's already out of print--Google around for it).
 
Robert.B said:
you said it yourself, you know jack about it where as I've taken kendo before moving to Iaido and Jodo...unless if they taught kendo with the kenjutsu kata like the OLD ryu its pretty much just a sport, and training in bettering ones mind. Not learning how to cut, how to draw, how to sheath, how to keep proper form in battle situations.
Click to expand...

No further comments on the timing & distance issue, or on sport approaches in general?
 
Robert B., perhaps my first post wasn't clear. Although kendo may just be a sport, that doesn't necessarily mean that Japanese officers were not trained in it. Training isn't always well thought out or useful. Sports training is very common in the military, especially for officers. As an extreme example, I hear that the zoomies at the Air For Academy are required to take a class on Ultimate Frisbee - how that is useful?

Sportsmanship is a very desirable quality, as is physical fitness. Whether or not kendo can be applied in battle cannot be used to determine a matter of historical fact. World War II, after all, was not a war in which the sword was particularly important ;) .
 
Well I personally am through with this thread, its pointless and turning into a thread reminisent of whats posted on SFI daily... :footinmou

later...
 
And I don't want to be too anal a moderator, but SFI bashing isn't really necessary here. The "community" is already broken up quite a bit, and we don't need to be making the perceived boundaries more pronounced with insult.

I suppose venting frustrations with the "atmosphere" is good and healthy, but I don't want to promote too much more negativity towards other members of the sword community. That's all.
 
Thanks for the link Brian,

Some of us still listen first. There is nothing wrong with dabate either, if the participants are open minded.


hehehehehe…… Brian said "Dudes" ;)

Cheers

GC
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top