WWIII Prototype Handle Pics and a Letter from Robert

[Craig Gottlieb]

Well, the moment is here. We've seen the sheaths (wonderful) from Scott at EdgeWorks. Now, here's the letter from Robert, followed by some pics.

I got your note, and your timing is perfect. I picked up the prototype
blade today. I had it bead blasted and charcoal blued. The color is
beautiful, very dark blue/gray. It looks great bead blasted. I did
notice a spot of almost bronze color on the corner of the handle. I'll
be seeing him in a day or so to pick up a shotgun I bought (I gotta stay
out of gunshops). I'll check to see the cause, and whether it's
preventable. It's not un-attractive, just different.

I'm attaching two JPEG's of the knife with handles attached temporarily.
(More on this later in the note.) The quality is poor because my camera
is only 640X480 and has limited focusing ablility. When we've resolved a
couple more issues, I can take 35mm images and have them scanned
professionally if people want.

I'm behind the schedule I've set for myself. I'm having some problems
coming up with the fasteners we talked about using. Several suppliers
are out of them. I'm hoping to have at least a partial order by the end
of the week. In the mean time, I'll continue to remove the ferrules.

I am holding off on the shaping of any more handles until the JPEG's
have been posted and comments gathered. One of the issues that came to
light on the forum is the lack of a "ridge" in the center of the handle
and the possibility of the knife hand slipping forward under slicing
cuts ( with the users hand being sliced as a result). I've only played
with the prototype a little so far, but I'm not sure that what we have
is a lot different from the slick, brass, wood or horn handles I've seen
(at least with the sand-blasted micarta). The high polish micarta may be
a different animal. The only solution I can forsee is to create a
"pseudo-guard" out of the micarta that would block the fingers from
slipping forward. This would shorten the effective grip length, as the
handle can't be lengthened without blocking the serial numbers. In other
regards, this is reasonable to do, we'll just fill with micarta and
epoxy since we have no metal beneath the grips.

People should also look at the position of the thong hole. It is at the
lower part of the rear "swell", which is different from what you usually
see. This is intentional and (I think) necessary. This is the only part
of the handle not covered by the users hand when the knife is in use.
This position should also help the lanyard to prevent forward motion of
the hand as described above.

Things are moving, just not as fast as I had hoped. I hope nobody was
planning on taking on of these with them when they ring in the
millenium.

Okay, now here are the pics:

Comments? (as if I HAD to ask!)

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Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor

 

[Craig Gottlieb]

Okay, I'll start off with some initial comments of my own. Overall, I love it, and can't wait to see my white handled version.

The only improvement I could suggest is to reshape the handle corners so that they are rounded. Thus, at the base, there would actually be some sharp metal "corners" exposed by the rounded micarta corners. Also, at the ferrule, the same thing could be done so that the top part of the handle would have rounded corners.

This is purely stylistic, but a change that I think would add some elegance to the design.

I do like the placement of the lanyard hole.

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Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor

 

[Jaeger]

Well, it looks good to me! I like the position of the lanyard hole. Will it be steel or brass lined? There probably should be some sort of provision for keeping the hand from slipping up onto the blade. Perhaps some sort of a thin, steel handguard could be fashioned. What I was thinking would be something similar to the guard found on the Western bowies. (but single sided) Anyway, it looks great! Keep up the good work and take whatever time is necessary to get this right!

Mike

 

[BMWGS80]

You'r right I cannot see the detail well enough to make a judgement. From what I can tell it looks good. I do not think a guard would be appropriate for this pattern but that is my opinion.This is not a stabbing knife but a cutting chopping knife. So It seems that the swelled butt is more important so the blade does not fly away.I would persnally like to see some palm swells not just a flat plane on the sides. My better feeling work knives all have palm swells in the handle.

Cheers,

ts

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Guns are for show. Knifes are for Pros.

 

[coyote]

Some initial thoughts of mine are I like Craigs idea of softening the edges. Also some sort of a palm swell I think is needed. The vertical ridges in a traditional Kuk handle provides that. Personally if you want a guard a small ridge of micarta would do the trick. I don't think a full out guard would be what you would want if you want any on this knife.

 

[Jaeger]

I like the idea of the palm swells. I'm not sure a guard would look right on this knife either but there does need to be something there to prevent slippage. The kamis have been putting those ridges in their handles for the past 400-500 years for a reason.

 

[p1445]

I would suggest shaping the micarta handle simular to the handles on the Cold Steel "Kukuris". I am real busy setting up for a 3-gun IPSC match this weekend but I'll try to get a sketch or picture to Blackdog by this weekend. If any one else could scan one or get a picture of one in the mean time I'd apperciate it.



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p1445
Beat it to fit, paint it to match.

 

[old_engineer]

Good inputs so far. Keep them coming. Addressing them in order:

Craig,

The intent of the square corners at the front of the handle was to mimic the ferrules. Looking at the prototype, I'm inclined to agree with you. I think we're looking at another set of handles for the prototype anyway. My only concern is that notch on the bottom. That will limit the radius I can put on the front of the handle.

Jaeger,

I can do steel or brass. My preference is brass, since this will get its final finish after assembly, and I don't want to have to re-polish the handles any more than necessary (or mask the blade more than necessary). I'm playing with a solution to "blue" brass right now. If it's durable, this is probably the best option. The consensus so far seems to be running against a guard as such. I will make the second set of handles with a "finger notch" worked into the micarta projecting downward. Let's see how it's received.

BMWGS80 & coyote,

Nice bike BTW. I always wanted one (maybe someday). The pictures don't show it very well, but there is somewhat more palm swell than there appears to be. Look at the grain and you can see that the forward high spot is roughly at the forward fastener. The measurement here is about .950". The low spot is just forward of the rear fastener. The measurement here is about .750". The measurment at the butt is again roughly .950". The larger measurements are limited by the micarta we have available to buy. We couldn't get 5/8" material, which would have allowed the handles to have thickness equal to the imported handles you're used to. We could only get 3/8". Both Craig and I tried with no sucess to find other sources. The handle could be sculpted deeper, so that the .750" measurement might be brought to .600" or .650". The limitation here is partly the fasteners, although I would be concerned with cutting the profile of the scales much deeper even with pins.

p1445,

I have seen pictures of the Cold Steel Kukhri. I think it is featured in one of the magazines this month. The projection I have in mind as a finger saver comes at least partly from reading this article. I'll make the handles and we'll see if we've made significant improvements.

Other information:

I talked again with the finisher this morning. The bronze patch I talked about in my post with the pictures seems to be the result of either impurities in that piece of steel, or a chunk of different steel getting into the melt. This is not uncommon on early 19th century gun parts. The important thing for us is that we won't know it until after finishing. I'll let Craig and you guys determine if this is a concern or not. As I said, It's not un-attractive, just different from the rest of the knife.

I know some of you must be chaffing at the bit, but I really think we're going to get a much better product by running preliminary results by you and getting the inputs worked into the product. I am sorry about the time this is taking.

Thanks for your patience,
Bob Couture

 

[Jaeger]

No apologies are necessary. This is a new and unique project and will be all the better from the buyer input and the extr time spent.

Mike

 

[X-Head]

Well, I had a .jpg I wanted to put in this post but I can't figure out how to do it. My suggestion would be to cut out a finger groove for the index finger somewhat like Mad Dog knives' handles. This would 1) serve as a reference point for gripping, 2) help to prevent forward slippage onto the blade somewhat, 3) be an 'out-of-the-way' design that won't snag on anything (clothing, for instance), 4) be more rugged and durable than any designs involving some sort of guard or other obtrusion.

I like a thick handle with palm swells too, but I realize the limitations Mr. Couture has to work with.

One question: Is the "ferrule" the liner that goes inside the lanyard hole? If it is, why can't we just leave it out? I don't see why a lanyard hole liner is necessary (less is more). The simpler we keep this design, the less likely there is for something to go wrong or break (or corrode, as the case may be). Besides, I think it would look better without it.

Craig, my hat's off to you for choosing Mr. Couture to be the 'Handle Meister.' I can tell by the photos and his thought process that these are going to be some well-designed, sturdy as a rock, attention to detail knife handles. And I think those adjectives will apply to the blade and the sheaths too. I'm really excited about this.

[This message has been edited by X-Head (edited 16 December 1999).]

 

[Marcus]

Very nice work! The lanyard hole location is okay with me. If it were any farther foreward I might not care for it as much since I favor my lanyards Applegate style (lanyard across the back of the hand and hooked over the thumb) but it should be fine where it is. The handles look quite nice. The palm swells are hard to see in the photo but I think I can get the gist of it and it`s all for the good. I really would like to see some sort of guard,finger groove or combination of the two. Nothing radical mind you just something subtle made from micarta would do it for me. Ideally it won`t reduce the length of the grip any significant amount (I have large hands

). FWIW I think it would add to the synthesis of traditional and modern lines as well. What a knife. I can`t wait!

Marcus

[This message has been edited by Marcus (edited 16 December 1999).]

 

[old_engineer]

X-Head,

I got the JPEG you sent in the email. Perhaps Craig or Blackdog will have time to post it here later today. The cutout you propose is reasonable. It may even be easier in the long run than extending the handle downward as I am considering. One change I might propose is that we consider making the scallop more gradual, creating what I would call a 2+2 finger grip. This might make for a more aesthetically pleasing handle that combines a better grip with the character of the original handles. I spent some time doodling on the handle last night, and I'm going to play with it in 3D this weekend.

The ferrule is the hollow brass or steel structure at the front of the handle of a conventional kukhri (or a wood chisel for that mater, although it's usually one piece on a chisel). On a european or american hunting knife, this would be solid metal, and called a bolster or guard (depending on whether it was made from one or two pieces). I generally call the tube you mention a thong tube. One of its purposes is to seal the interior of the tang from moisure (important on a carbon steel knife), another is to keep the edges of the hole from being abraided by the thong. Canvas micarta is especially bad about getting "fuzzy" from being abraided. I can consider plastic liners (delrin) if the metal is too "high profile".

Marcus,

What you describe is the direction I was heading in (and still may be). A projection below the handle is the most direct way of dealing with "finger security". Creating it from the micarta is the easiest way to get the projection. It's interesting that you mention handle length. My hands are not too large, and in handling the knife, I came to the conclusion that I wouldn't want the handles much smaller. In fact, I plan on making the next ones about 1/8" longer. I would go longer still, but that would begin to obscure the serial numbers.

Other observations:

These things were made to be blued. I am awe struck with the change it makes in the character of the knife. The pictures so far just don't do it justice.

Another evenings worth of handling the knife and swinging it around in simulated chopping of tree limbs (my dog is starting to look at me like I'm nuts, my wife just shakes her head) leads me to the conclusion that the palm swell needs to move back about 7/8". I will also make it as extreme as the handle material will allow. I may notch some handle material to different depths and try to gauge how far I can go. I anticipate serious usage on some of these, and I don't want any broken handles.

Next chapter early in the week (I hope).

Thanks,
Bob Couture

 

[Craig Gottlieb]

Guys: X-Head asked me to post this picture for him. It displays a proposed design change to the handle. I like it, and if the rest of the forumites think it would be a good design addition, I'm sure Robert can do it. Of course, with the change involves some substantial re-working of the handle, so the total cost might go up a bit, but I'm sure none of us are too worried about a few extra dollars for a perfect dream khukuri:

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Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor

 

[Steven F]

If given a choice, I would not opt for the change because I think it detracts too much from the traditional lines of the khukuri. However, if most folks favor the change, and if everyone has to agree to it in order for it to take effect, I would go along with the majority. In other words, I would like for my khuk to be unchanged, but I don't want to be an obstacle to those who favor the alteration.

 

[rdbyrd]

I am for the change (addintion of finger groove).

 

[X-Head]

Thanks to Craig for posting that pic for me.

I'm not married to the idea of a finger groove, but I thought it might help alleviate SOME of the forward slippage, and at the same time be less of a digression from the classic khukuri profile than a guard would. Of course, the red line I drew is sloppy and may be out of proportion as well as out of position a bit--it's just to give us a visual and help us to imagine how it would look.

Personally, I wouldn't mind paying for the additional labor, etc., for this feature, but I share Steven F.'s sentiments: I don't want to force the finger groove design on anyone who doesn't want it on theirs, so if it's either all or nothing, and someone doesn't want it on theirs, I can do without it. Whatever everyone thinks is best, I'll happily go along with. I'm the new guy on the block anyway--I consider all of you guys the khukuri experts.

 

[old_engineer]

Guys,

I'm mocking up a handle scale now. It will include my take on the cut out as I outlined it above. For the time being, I won't modify the steel of the tang. I'll wait until you've decided that it's really the direction we want to take.

Thanks,
Bob Couture

 

[Marcus]

I like your idea of a subtle 2+2 configuration. Depending on how you do it,it might actually form a sort of mini foreward guard. The seperation of the two finger sections might also suggest the ring of the traditional khukuri in silhouette. A potentially interesting twist! Your ideas on the palm swells also seem right on the money. It`s clear to me that Craig picked just the right guy for this project! Good work so far and don`t rush on our account. Marcus

 

[Steven F]

I second the thinking of Marcus: take all the time needed, we're in no hurry. The longer we take to work out all the details, the better will be the finished product.

 

[Craig Gottlieb]

I "third" everybody's comments: Take all the time you need, Robert.

In the end, the WWIII will be a knife worth having and keeping forever.



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Craig Gottlieb
Gurkha House
Blade Forums Sponsor