Yarborough vs Busse

J

JackBoots

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Curious how people would rate the new 'Green Beret Knife' against the 'Busse Steel Heart'.

I do not own either, so I cannot comment personally.

Cordially,

JB:confused:
 
The Busse diehards will go to their graves believing in the superiority of Infi steel, and while claims may have merit, I have never seen an objective test to prove how much better it is, if any, over other premium cutlery steels. It may be nuclear tough, but humans aren't!

One thing is certain; in terms of quality of manufacturing the Green Beret knife is in a higher level of fit and finish than the Busse, and IMO the ergonomics are superior as well, but this is more subjective. As someone pointed out, though, quality of finish does not mean much in a user, because the knife will lose this advantage upon first hard use.

Both knives I am sure offer excellent field performance, though the Busse has the advantage here in having a proven track record. I believe in the products of CRK enough to infer that the Green Beret knife will prove itself in time. It is not insignificant that it won out over approx. 100 other knives for the Special Forces award. I wonder if the Steel Heart was submitted? I am sure that we will never know.

Busse knives have excellent reputations for performance, but they just don't have the build quality that I expect in a $300+ knife. A Cold Steel Trailmaster offers similar build quality to the Busse at half the price. I'll take the Green Beret.
 
I don't have alot of familiarity with the Green Beret knife; I have heard of it and seen pictures but never handled one. From the name alone I would gather that it is a fighter, something that the Steelheart is not and if special forces like the Green Beret wanted a fighter, the Steelheart would -quite correctly- never been submitted as a possiblity as it is not specifically for that purpose.

Today's military require lightweight tools and weapons, and in that regard I bet the Green Beret would win out over a Steelheart. Similarly, around a camp or on a trail, a Steelheart cannot be beat by anything on this planet at any price.

I have owned quite a few of Chris Reeve knives - I think he makes an excellent product. I currently carry a wood sebenza as my EDC and I am continually amazed by the fit and finish of the product.

As for the Busses, I would rather have an overbuilt product (something that is nuclear tough) than one that is not. And in the final summation I think that the market decides what is an excellent product and what is not - in that regard the Busses and its aftermarket value cannot be beat.

Frankly, jki, comparing a Steelheart to a Cold Steel is like comparing a Sebenza to a Buck; I think both analogies are quite ignorant.

I find your post full of contradictions, and would suggest it better to take the "high road".
 
Contender, your response to my post is typical of the blatantly blind enthusiasm I see in many forums of this type. If you will read what I said, you will find that I had nothing but praise for the proven performance and track record of Busse products. But it defies logic that we take all the hype as gospel and proclaim Busse as the ne-plus-ultra, reigning supreme over all other products that would dare even to be considered as a worthy alternative.
If you will read my post again, you will see that I compared the Busse to a Cold Steel only in workmanship, and not on performance. I stand by my comparison. It is not that the workmanship of these knives are inferior; they are just typical of good production values and not anything special. But the Green Beret, typical of all of CRK products, is just on a higher plane in the area of workmanship; fully up to custom-class levels of fit/finish. In a $300 knife I have come to expect this better level of workmanship.
Again, though I recognize Busse's proven performance, I am not ready to simply take it as an act of faith that nothing else can even compare. Excuse me for being open-minded.
 
Quote from jki
It is not insignificant that it won out over approx. 100 other knives for the Special Forces award. I wonder if the Steel Heart was submitted? I am sure that we will never know.
Click to expand...

quote from CRK website
A serialized version of the "Yarborough" knife will be presented to each graduate of the Special Forces Qualification Course.
Click to expand...

I'm afraid that you are mis-informed:
There was never a competition, the knife was designed as an award knife upon graduating from the Academy.

That's it!

The fact that it's S30V is what time will tell.
It will be interesting to see how it holds up under field conditions.
I'm afraid Afghanistan will tell us sooner than I hope.
I just pray it doesn't fail under fire.

If you would like to read more...try here-
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=235331&highlight=Yarborough+vs+Busse
 
I like the looks of the Yarborough knife, and I seriously doubt that a .22" thick piece of S30V is going to fail under any condition. CRK are awesome and I have wanted a Project II for some time now.

I also like my Steelheart, and feel this knife could do almost anything physically possible in order to survive.

They are both great knives, and excel in different applications.
 
Quote from 1whobuys:

"I'm afraid that you are mis-informed:
There was never a competition, the knife was designed as an award knife upon graduating from the Academy."



From Tactical Knives, March 2003 issue, page 61:

100 Knives Tested
"Approximately 100 different knives from a wide range of sources were submitted for evaluation, and the Harsey/Reeve knife collaboration was chosen by the Special Forces Headquarters as the one that best fulfilled their requirements."
 
jki is correct, I read the Tactical Knives article at the bookstore yesterday and it does make that statement.

http://www.tacticalknives.com/

However, I believe the factoid stated in the article is inaccurate. I personally do not believe that there was a knife competition, I believe that one person contacted several knife makers to consult about a design.

It is clear to me IMHO :) that the GB knife is a Project knife with a new handle. Certainly, nothing new here.

I do not consider the new knife to be some sort of Super Knife meant for Green Berets, it is an Award knife that is functional. I believe CRK is using the Green Beret Knife handle as a marketing ploy to sell their knife.

However, let's be honest and discern exactly what we are getting.

Thanks,

JB


Originally posted by jki
Quote from 1whobuys:

"I'm afraid that you are mis-informed:
There was never a competition, the knife was designed as an award knife upon graduating from the Academy."

From Tactical Knives, March 2003 issue, page 61:

100 Knives Tested
"Approximately 100 different knives from a wide range of sources were submitted for evaluation, and the Harsey/Reeve knife collaboration was chosen by the Special Forces Headquarters as the one that best fulfilled their requirements."
Click to expand...
 
Gentlemen,

I believe you are mistaken about the Yarborough being an award knife. Quoting from Blade magazine Jan 2003. "Lt. Gen Brown (present SF Commander) called his staff together and had his instructors give input into a "working combat knife to be used and not displayed bf today's Special Forces"". Also according to "Tactical Knives" the Yarborough was designed by Bill Harsey with input from Chris Reeves. Seems to me this would indicate a new knife, not a redone Project. Speaking from personal experience, having been on multiple deployments to various locations, I would not carry an expensive fighting knife. They get to abused and misused in the field. A decent(inexpensive) camp type/general purpose knife would be best, most of us are issued M-16's for fighting. I would not be happy about leaving a $300+ knife behind due to chemical contamination. As much as I love my Small Sebenza it stays at home in favor of an Emerson Mini CQC7-A and various fixed blades.

Droopy
 
Everyone has brought some good information to the table. What we lacked in this whole thing is we need to first identify the exact task and then compare the blades for that task. Each has an advantage in diff areas. Both are fine knives but they were not really designed for the same tasks. We all have learned that no one knife is the answer to every situation. If we were only looking at the CRK GB and the Busse SH with no other knives in the competition.

The CRK would most likely gain the edge if you were looking for a pure Fighter. (I doubt many would argue against this)

The Busse would most likely gain the edge if you were looking for a pure General Purpose Tool. (I also doubt many would argue against this)

How you use your knife would change which of these you might select for a given task.

It is seldom that a Cross Manufacturer comparison posted in one Manufacturer’s Forum (OK this was posted separately in each Forum) doesn't end in a flame war and the “Battle of the Trolls”, so far we have dodged that bullet. The original post was in no way "Troll-ish" so if we try real hard we might escape without any hurt feelings.
 
SOCOM came up with the specs of the knife and went in search of a knifemaker. The knife is presented to graduates of the Q course. Wether they use it in the field or display it above the fireplace is up to them. There was no competition of 100 knives as stated by the knife rag.
 
JackBoots has requested the following image be added to this thread

gb%20knife%201.jpg


And for equal time here is a Busse SH Zero Tolerance (Not mine but I have 2)
busse_zt_sh.bmp


I find that the fit and finish of the CRK knives I own easily match that of the Busse's I own. I think that we all can agree that Cold Steel and Buck while good products are not anywhere near these products. If i needed a Fighter I'd go with the GB. If I needed a Camp Knife/Tool I'd go with the Busse.
 
Eric_Draven,

I don't understand your post.

Do you disagree with:

1) Comparing a Cold Steel and a Busse.

2) Comparing a Sebenza with a Buck folder.

3) That both analogies are quite ignorant.

or

4) All of the above.

Also, why do you disagree with whatever it is you disagree with?
 
Frankly, jki, comparing a Steelheart to a Cold Steel is like comparing a Sebenza to a Buck; I think both analogies are quite ignorant
Click to expand...

There is no dumber question then one not asked. I see nothing wrong with comparing these knives. The Cold Steel trailmaster is a reputable commercial knife just like the CRK, the Busse, Tops, and dozens of others. They each have their advantages and disadvantages, but it is arrogant to pre-emptively disqualify one of these knives.

We don't even know what the intended use is.

n2s
 
Originally posted by WTFOver
Eric_Draven,

I don't understand your post.

Do you disagree with:

1) Comparing a Cold Steel and a Busse.

2) Comparing a Sebenza with a Buck folder.

3) That both analogies are quite ignorant.

or

4) All of the above.

Also, why do you disagree with whatever it is you disagree with?
Click to expand...

I disagree with the implication that Busse knives (or CRK knives for that matter) are SOOOO superior that comparing them to mere production knives such as those offered by Cold Steel or Buck is "ignorant."

As the director of Busse's Custom Shop, I'd say Contender is just a tad biased.

I have solid reason for my assertions. I have neither the time nor the inclination to write them out in great detail right now.

I will simply say that I have Cold Steel products that out perform my Busse knives over a broad range of tasks.

To be fair, this is after the Cold steel products were extensively modified by a custom maker (reground, new handles and refinished).

However, to meet my standards of performance, for the type of tasks I usually put my knives to Busse knives also have required modification to perform properly. This is becasue Busse knives are usually ground with high durability as the highest criterea, and for my uses of a knife a greater emphasis is placed on cutting performance.

Specifically, my Cold Steel Trailmaster, as pictured, easily outperformed my stock stock Battle Mistress. The edge is simply far more actute (full convex grind to 25 degrees included vs. the BM assyemeterical edge which was over 50 degrees included.)
fd6bb41d.jpg


The edge thickness, and overall durability, of the Busse is higher and woulod be better suited to more abusive tasks. It is, however, overbuilt for the vast majority of woodcraft, and knife tasks in general.


Looking at smaller knives, I can compare the Busse directly to the Cold Steel Master Hunter.

From Busse, the BA3 was not well suited for my uses. To be specific the edge was far too thick, and the overall fit and finish was not very good. In stock condition, the BA3 was readily outcut by a high performance knife such as the Rinaldi TTKK.
fd98cf1e.jpg

fd98cf32.jpg


In order to suit my needs I had the BA3 completely re-worked. It was reground to a full convex profile, the scales properly mated to the tang and radiused. The sub-par sheath was replaced by an excellent sheath by Kenny Rowe.
fd6bb3bb.jpg

fd5c0bef.jpg


This greatly increased the performance of the BA3. I understand that for a premium price, the Busse custom shop will soon be offering a similarly reworked knife.

Here is my custom version next to one that has not been done yet.
fd19e07f.jpg


In direct comparison to the Busse offering is a Cold Steel Master Hunter, reworked by the same maker.
fd1e35d9.jpg


The handle was replaced by a wonderful canvas micarta one, and the edge profile was changed to a thin convex grind.

Again, the Busse knife is still weighted more heavily towards durability, whereas the Cold Steel knife provides a higher level of cutting performance over a broad range of tasks. The only area that the Busse (even in this much improved form) would outpace it is in very heavy tasks, such as cutting hard plastics, prying knots out of wood, impacts off bone etc.

A major reason for this is that the Master Hunter has a full distal taper, so that while both knives are 3/16" thick at the base of the spine, the Master Hunter tapers to a very acute tip, and the BA3 remains at near full stock thickness.

My point is that it is entirely possible for a Cold Steel knife to readily outperform a Busse knife. There are no magic knives. Cutting performance is a matter of geometery, with all else being secondary.

As to the original subject of this post, Busse vs. CRK:

I have not used the Green Beret knife yet. It looks like a solid design. I do not care for the undercut scales, and would like the tang ground flush to the handle. To me, this is far more comfortable.

I have used other CRK knives, however.

My review of the Shadow IV is here:
http://www.knifeforums.com/ubbthrea...4237&page=1&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=365&fpart=1

And I directly compared the Busse Battle Mistress and the CRK Shadow I here:
http://www.knifeforums.com/ubbthrea...6023&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=365&fpart=1


AS between the knives at issue here, I would personally choose the Busse SteelHeart. However, rather than my stock model:
fd7aa130.jpg

I would choose this one, rewoked by my friend Dave. The edge was greatly thinned out on his edgepro and the handle scales are sculpted and much thicker. This allows for a hand filling grip that lowers fatiuge and transmits less shock in chopping. The result is a higher level of performance and safety.

fd54adc0.jpg



Now that is my simple and concise reasons for disagreeing with Contender's statement. Had I wanted to write the greatly detailed version it would take several days and lots of bandwidth.

Take care,
Chad
 
To not2sharp,

Your point related to "We don't even know what the intended use is." is right on mark. Your common sense here would lead me to question your choice of Forum Name. :)

To everyone,
I think that where Marc (Contender) took offence was when the Busse and Clod Steel were classed as somewhat equivalent options. I suppose we could also put the CRK One Piece line and the Yarborough 'Green Beret’ Knife in that same class but it would be unfair to Cold Steel. Their price point limits them to some degree. He in turn felt that this was like putting the Buck folders in the same class as the Sebenza, a point CRK users would most likely take offence to. Once again Buck’s price point limits this comparison. Not that Cold Steel and Buck don’t produce fine products for their intended users; it’s just that they are on the lower end of the scale as opposed to CRK and Busse. Both Buck and Cold Steel produce fine products for their intended market but they are not really competing with CRK or Busse for the high end market share.
Many people have posted in the past that they fail to understand the “Myth of the Sebenza” and why it should cost so much. The same is often said about Busse’s and the “Myth of INFI”. For whatever reason there are those who don’t understand either of these. However, there are also many of us that understand the difference between these knives and the others in their class and choose to purchase them.

By now we all have learned that the “One Knife”… the Holy Grail of Knives that does everything and is everything to everyone is just not out there. I can’t even count how many times I thought I’d found it only to find myself out buying a new one soon after. I’ve lost count of how many knives I now have in my collection and how many are in my EDC rotation. The reason that there are so many Knives (or cars, or whatever the product is) out there is that people have different tastes, needs, and place different levels of importance on different qualities.

Each of these two knives has a place in this world and there will be plenty of users for each. CRK, Busse, and others will continue to make knives and we will continue to buy the one’s we want to. I personally did not see a way to make a direct comparison of the Yarborough 'Green Beret’ Knife and the Busse Steel Heart due to the fact that I would not use them for the same task. For those that would use them for the same task I think we must first identify the task and then we can choose the tool that will best meet the need.

Eric_Draven,

As I was ready to post this I saw your last post. You have some very valid points. (and some very nice knives.) The "overbuilt" comment is one often heard when talking about Busse's and the edge modifications are not uncommon. Thanks for explaining your position. I still stand by my position above that Cold Steel to Busse Stock comparison would not favor the Cold Steel. But we all have our opinions and that is what makes for lively discussions
 
WTFover,
Well said.

I agree that Busse makes a higher overall performing knife than Cold Steel in stock form. I just feel that both brands can be improved upon, and have done so on my personal knives (thanks to a very talanted maker!).

I think the most important point ehre is that you have to look at the intended use before casting your vote.

I don't think price point is an essential attribute however. For about 90% of my knife needs (fine tasks and food prep) the highest level performance I have yet found (after much searching) has been the Victorinox paring knife ($2.99 at SMKW, sometimes on sale for even less!)
 
Here is a picture to illustrate the distal taper I had written about above (CS MH as compoared to the Busse BA3 spine shot):
fd1e3581.jpg
 
Chad,

As always, I enjoyed reading your review/comments. You present a well thought out point of view and a variety of awesome pictures.
I have read your reviews on Knifeforums and look forward to any future endeavors you may undertake. My hat is off to you sir.

I have the CRK Yarborough and like it very much. I have also had a Busse or two in the past and have always been impressed by both makers. Other than that I cannot make any type of statement as I do not have both on hand to compare.
Perhaps in the next month or so I can acquire one and give a more informed opinion. Until then I will defer to those with more experience and more 'toys' to compare and contrast.

Happy New Year everybody!

Roy
 
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