Yataghan Prototype Update!

Vampire Hunter D

Vampire Hunter D

Joined
Nov 26, 1999
Messages
406
O.K., here we go! I hope I get all of this right...

Tom's computer is still down so I'll fill you in on what we've been talking about with the yataghan. He wanted to make some steel prototypes to see how they would feel and to get it right before he made the wooden model. These are all Tom's words( more or less) and all I've done is add some suggestions and ask questions.
Because of certian methods the kamis use making thin blades makes them very weak and flimsy. Turkish and Afghan smiths got around this by reinforcing the spine like so.
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3/16" blade, 7/16" spine

The comprimise would be to make it out of 3/8" stock and smack in an awsome fuller to somthing like 1/16"; but the downside is that the blade width will then spread to 3 inches plus; whereas the yataghan should start at 1.75" and taper evenly all the way to the point. ( Obviously the main problem is that the kamis don't make blades less than 3/8". Even though this design is practically indestructable.)

So Tom then made a Mark I prototype in the traditional style. It gave him a good example of what a yataghan could do, but is very ugly. With a 3/16" blade it was able to cut 2.5" deep with a one handed flick of the wrist1! It outperformed the King Kobra in pretty much every aspect.
The Mark II prototype is what Tom made next, it is pretty close to what the kamis would make. 3/8" at the spine, 2lbs 5oz. far too heavy. Although it cuts through a 3" diameter sapling in one stroke, it handles like a pig and is very hard to control. Keep in mind that the point of balence is very far foward. Imagine a 2 1/2lb hammer on a 21" handle. The weight could be reduced to around 2lbs with fullering, but thats still too heavy. It should be around 1lb 7oz. As Uncle Bill says, we'll get it right! I've suggested a persian style handle, its practical and looks good. Tom of course has more expensive and difficult ideas for the handle.
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Any suggestions? I hope this helps a little to those who were wondering about the status of the yataghan. I'll pass all suggestions over to Tom until he gets back on-line. I hope to have some pics up soon.

- D

Crap!! Obvoiuly the little drawing didn't work the way I wanted it to. I hope you get the idea.

[This message has been edited by Vampire Hunter D (edited 03-24-2000).]
 
Back for the moment, on a borrowed computer...

Many thanks to Daniel for posting updates; here's my current thinking on this project.

As Daniel said, I wanted to try out a steel prototype before making a wooden one, to give me an idea of how the likely end result would handle and perform. I don't think you can get much of a feel for a sword from a wooden model.

My main concern is that the kamis, quite rightly, place great store in thick, sturdy blades - exactly what's needed for khukuris, maybe not so appropriate for some sword designs (the katana's an exception, obviously, since the traditional kat blade is pretty damn solid)

I looked at all the pix of yataghans (and their Indian/Afghan-made cousins, the Khyber knives) that I could find; also managed to borrow a yataghan from a friend's collection, and studied that and my own Khyber knives & tulwars in detail. As far as I can see, yataghan blades are typically thin (giving excellent cutting and non-sticking qualities) and derive their strength from a thickened spine, frequently reinforced & flanged to give the blade a T-section (as shewn in my crummy piece of ASCII art that Dan reproduced in his post).

I made a prototype of this kind; blade thickness 3/16", flanged T-spine 3/8"; all-over hardened & tempered in oil; styling and profile basic yataghan, tho' both concave & convex curves are exaggerated in comparison with the originals. Despite some pretty heroic efforts I haven't been able to break or bend the sucker, and it cuts deep and easily, even in hardwood. It handles very well IMHO, and is quick and lively in the hand. The blade thickness and T-spine width are copied from an early/mid 19th century laminated-blade Khyber knife in my collection.

The Lonesome Lemming Forge #1 prototype yataghan (LLF1) is pretty ugly to look at, and wouldn't make a suitable pattern for copying in wood and sending to Nepal; but it's demonstrated to my satisfaction that the thin blade/reinforced spine method of construction is sound and suitable for the yataghan. I fitted it with a drop-forward hilt with S-shaped quillons in a style best described as 'composite Islamic' or 'SCA scimitar'... It's crude but comfy, and works well for both cut & thrust.

I then set out to make a second prototype to represent the sort of blade that I suspect the kamis will want to make... very strong and robust, with a 3/8"+ spine, distal tapered and steep-cannel ground, with a rather more traditional yataghan profile. The shape didn't come out exactly as I'd planned - the last 4 inches upsweep rather more melodramatically than I'd intended, and the T-spine is much less pronounced than on LLF1

This prototype (Lonesome Lemming #2) has a point of balance well forward of the hand; once launched it's pretty well unstoppable and it cuts like a sharp axe, but it's extremely awkward to handle & manoeuvre. It's also far chunkier than any original yataghan or Khyber knife that I know of. It looks cuter than LLF1 (which isn't saying a lot...) I haven't put a hilt on it yet.

My conclusion is that if we commission a HI yataghan, it ought to have a thin T-section blade with a reinforced spine; a blade that's yataghan-shaped but make khukuri-fashion wouldn't, in my opinion, be much use.

(It occurs to me that LLF2 could be greatly improved by adding a substantial and deep fuller, as seen on some tulwars, reducing thickness while keeping the width the same. I haven't tried this because fullering is too difficult for me, especially working on my own. The kamis have, of course, proved repeatedly that they're extremely skilled at fullering, and this may be the way forward if they object to the T-section design)

As I see it, the question is whether the kamis would feel comfortable making blades based on somewhat different principles of construction than the ones they're used to. I believe that anybody capable of making the exquisite and indestructible khuks that come from BirGhorka is more than capable of the technical skill required for this project; that's not in issue. But we've seen several posts on this forum quoting the kamis' reluctance to make thin-section blades (understandably enough, since it goes against the habits of a lifetime) We don't want to be in the position of badgering them into doing something they don't feel comfortable with.

Does anybody have any thoughts on the subject? In particular, has anybody got or seen a kami-made tanwar or tulwar, and if so, how thick is the blade and how does it handle?
 
Tom,

How ugly is ugly?
I am looking for something that is as traditional weight, balance, and shape as possible, but that is because I have specific research purposes in mind.

On the overall thickness, a yataghan is a sword not a multipurpose chopper, so the kamis should have some appreciation of the difference. How does Kumar make his big khukuris lighter?

As for the handle - surely the full tang will pull the weight back a bit?
What about the pommel? Is advisable to go for the traditional winged shape?

all the best,

Alan.
 
Alan.

I think I like to have a Yataghan - a REAL Yataghan remake by HI Birgorkha - So, I guess I have to wait until the 1st batch get theirs 1st - reason, so that I can see the real spec & not the imaginary spec!

This HI Birgorkha version of Yataghan is going to be a conversational piece only (except if very very bad things crop up that really, really & really need it's service in the action part!) - OF COURSE I'm not going to cut grass or chop trees using Yataghan!

NEPAL HO!
 
:
Mohd are you saying the yataghan wouldn't be a using blade?
wink.gif

I would have to try it out on something just to make sure it was sharp.
smile.gif
hehehehehe.



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