YCS-3 vs Aogami 2. Any decisive difference?

S

Sir Joe

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May 30, 2015
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Hello, I am looking at some handmade Japanese pruners. It is the same blacksmith, which means that in the final result the decisive factor would be the kind of steel (supposing he masters both steels, which I believe he does, as they are the only steels he uses and he's supposedly the best).
The difference in price is not so huge, so I would normally directly go for the Aogami, apart for the fact that a seller told me it is more brittle than the YCS-3.
Anyway my real problem is that the model of pruner I am more inclined to (because of other factors which MAY make it better for my hand) only comes in YCS-3.
The composition looks very similar to my newbie eyes. Most obvious difference is that the Aogami has got more Tungsten while the YCS-3 more Manganese.
Both are supposed to give strength and wear resistance, so, I am not sure what to make out of this.

Any suggestion? What would be the pro and cons of the two steels, specially on a pruner (which is mostly a push cut although with some kind of circular movement)?
 
Both steel are very close at carbon/alloy content. Theoretic, Aogami 2 might have the edge on wear resistance while may be a bit less tough. But that just theory, in real world you will hardly notice any difference...

Aogami 2 or blue steel number 2 is a premium melt high carbon steel from Hitachi. You can look at the surfer and phosphorus content that Aogami 2 has significantly lower than YCS-3.
 
Surfer content sounds very beach boys to me, I like that :)
But I understood what you mean.
Although this table at zknives shows very similar contents of P and S, I would say.
Or is that already a huge difference, when talking of S and P?

I also thought that the difference may not be perceptible, but if a blacksmith offers the same product with two different steels at different prices, one asks himself why.
Anyway both steels have similar C and Cr, so they will both rust equally fast, right?
And I in my understanding both Tungsten (Aogami) and Manganese (YCS-3) would increase Wear Resistance but also brittleness. So, where is the difference?
Why should anybody want to spend more for the Aogami in a pruner?
 
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Are you talking about Tobisho pruners?

It's difficult to tell performance from just the alloy specifications of two steels. Ultimately, that performance is going to depend on the heat treat. Because this maker specializes in high-quality, handmade tools in each of these steels, you would probably be best off going with the pruners that match your needs in terms of size and ergonomics. I'd trust the maker to ensure that the steel used is optimal.

It's hard to get a feel for the two steels in these pruners as described by the maker because of language difficulties. My sense is that the YCS-3 steel is the traditional steel of this maker. It would be a good all round steel for pruners. The Aogami steel is laminated, allowing it to have an extra hard and extra keen edge. But that edge may be less rugged.
 
Sir Joe said:
But I understood what you mean.
Although this table at zknives shows very similar contents of P and S, I would say.
Or is that already a huge difference, when talking of S and P?
Click to expand...
Well, it shows similar because of the scale. As in chart bars have to be scaled proportionally to fitt largest bar, which in this case is 1.5% for tungsten. Therefore, visually 0.030 and 0.004 look very similar.
That is exactly why I apply the table below the chart to look at exact values, because looks are deceiving to some degree. Sulfur in this case is about 8.5 times less in Aogami 2, but can't draw with that precision :) At least not in the default setup. To make the difference more pronounced, in chart menu click the Settings button and there, select only S and P and then click Build, you'll see the difference much better, because numbers are closer and the scale becomes more accurate for the small values.
 
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Twindog said:
It's difficult to tell performance from just the alloy specifications of two steels. Ultimately, that performance is going to depend on the heat treat. Because this maker specializes in high-quality, handmade tools in each of these steels, you would probably be best off going with the pruners that match your needs in terms of size and ergonomics. I'd trust the maker to ensure that the steel used is optimal.
Click to expand...

This. Worry most about weight, size and ergonomics; especially if you are doing a lot of repetitive pruning for long periods (like say, a job trimming lots of dried cannabis flowers). A shape that fits your hand and allows for the maximum amount of pruning while expending the most minimal amount of energy is way more important than steel composition.
 
Twindog said:
Are you talking about Tobisho pruners?
I'd trust the maker to ensure that the steel used is optimal.
My sense is that the YCS-3 steel is the traditional steel of this maker. It would be a good all round steel for pruners. The Aogami steel is laminated, allowing it to have an extra hard and extra keen edge. But that edge may be less rugged.
Click to expand...
Yes, he. Supposedly the best in the world. 200 years family tradition, 6 generations sword, 2 pruners.
And I am talking of the A-Type pruner, which he offers in YCS-3 or Aogami2. It is a more traditional pruner. The blade is of steel soldered with brass to the handle of casting (supposedly to spare weight, although the other pruner is only 10-15 grams heavier). He's apparently one of the few left able/equipped to do that.
The other pruner is the SR-1, which should be smoother than the A, which if true would be good for my carpal tunnel (not even the ARS with rolling handle could help). It is one solid forged piece of YCS-3. He designed/created this model.
I do trust him, in the meaning that I am sure that if he uses the YCS-3 it must be a very good steel for the job. He would not use it otherwise.
And you may be right but I had understood that he started with Aogami and moved to YCS.
Maybe YCS is easier to work (I have no idea if it is, I am just supposing) and allows him to produce more units in less time. And possibly like you say it also is a bit tougher.
These are the only two reasons why I can imagine that he would make the "one piece of steel" pruners in YCS, and offer the Aogami option just on the A-Type where only the blade is of steel. I suppose that in such a small part it makes no difference which steel is easier to work, and given that the blade can be replaced, it is not a drama if it is more brittle and gets damaged.
Anyway, I cannot imagine the Aogami being damaged just by cutting branches. While I can imagine the advantages of a keener edge. So I would definitely buy the Aogami one unless it does not feel right on my hands.

Gator97 said:
Well, it shows similar because of the scale.
Click to expand...
That makes sense. When I added Elmax to the comparison (just to see what would happen) the scale changed so much that S and P disappeared.
But how to know if, although 8.5 times more than in the Aogami, the S in the YCS is "much" or not? We are still talking of 0.03. I really have no idea if that amount is of any relevance. And I mean REALLY no idea.

WK ONE said:
Worry most about weight, size and ergonomics
Click to expand...
If I would do that kind of job I would probably have enough money to buy his Hiryu pruner which costs 3-4 times more than the SR and is supposedly made for farmers who work with repetitive trimming of fruit trees all day long.
Maybe I will, one day.
I mean, have money to buy that pruner. Not trimming Cannabis flowers :D
Anyway. Ergonomics need to be tested personally.
I suppose I will really have to order both. Damn. I am starting hating returns.
 
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kwackster said:
A possible alternative could be a Swiss made Felco
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Thanks for the nice intention, but we are talking of quite another level of quality.
I am a gardener and Felco 2 were "of course" my first pruner.
Life taught me (not very gently) never to say never.
But I find it VERY hard to imagine that I will ever use a Felco again.
I have used the ARS and they are much better than Felco. Okatsune are said to be better than ARS. And Tobisho are said to be (much) better than Okatsune.
So...
 
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Where in lies the difference in quality, and what made you decide to stop using a Felco ?
Not doubting you for a second, as you must have valid reasons, but so many pro's here seem perfectly happy with their Felco's.
Just want to learn.

I don't use these tools myself, but i sharpen them sometimes for others on my Tormek T7 fitted with an SB-250 Blackstone (silicon carbide)
The factory edge on Felco's can be a bit hit or miss, but the blade steel is very well hardened and takes an excellent edge.
 
Well, it is like with cars, I suppose. One may well never feel unsatisfied with his Fiat till he tries an Audi and a new world opens to him.
Fiat are not bad. They do what they are supposed to.
Felco too. And many professionals still use them as you say.
But I do not know anysinglebody who has tried a Japanese pruner and still uses Felco. Japanese pruners are just at another level.
It's just a matter of fact but cannot be explained. It is the way they cut, the way they look, the way they feel in the hand, the way they get old.
I have compared the rolling handle models of Felco, Bahco and ARS. With the paper sheet test, ARS and Bahco were giving a perfect clean cut. Felco did not.
Bahco and Felco were feeling wrong in the hand. Specially Bahco which was completely unbalanced. My colleagues had this feeling too.
ARS was the only pruner which was excelling in all aspects, cut, look, feel, balance, comfort, and the genius "squeeze to open".
I kept ARS and Felco.
I never use Felco.
When I do, I deeply hate their rolling handle, it is so badly designed, it turns too much and I always find it in the wrong position and must lose time to adjust it.
Now I feel that I want to have something smaller, and I decided to step up in quality and buy Okatsune, but then I discovered Tobisho.
And while my colleagues think I am crazy to spend 90-120 Euro on a pruner, and say they would be scared to leave such a tool somewhere and have it damaged or lost, I think that every day I do not use the best tool, it is a worse loss than the day I lost it. And I do not even care how much it costs.
And this, this is what Japanese tools can do to people :)
Felco can NOT.
Even just on something like ARS and Okatsune, which are machine made, you get a feeling they have a soul. So, imagine a Tobisho, handmade by a 8 generation blacksmith.
You feel a f...ing Samurai with that in your hands.
The Felco feel lifeless, just an object which you can throw where you want. Some people (German, pragmatic, less emotional) like that.
They do not even write which kind of steel they use and what HRC. This is so impersonal, so careless.

Now, they do have a few advantages:
- the system to tighten the blades is the best ever, period.
- the blades are so thin that you get a decent cut also if the edge was not perfectly sharpened.
- you are more likely to find a replacement part in most parts of the world.
- they are (relatively) cheap, at least compared with Japanese pruners.

That.
 
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