Yes, I read the stickies....

Chris Lyons

Chris Lyons

Joined
Feb 22, 2017
Messages
89
I know you are all probably tired of this type of post, and for that I somewhat apologize... but I am having trouble with forge welding damascus... by hand.

I have had a bit of success, but it is always a toss up.

Here's the deal.

I grind all my steel (no more that 1.5" wide) clean, wipe it down with acetone to make sure there is no oils from hands and assemble with nitrile gloves. Weld the stack at the ends, one in the middle to prevent bowing out. Weld on a handle stick. Soak in Kerosene.

Heat to warm, flux.
Brush, heat to red(ish) brush, flux.. back in the heat until yellowish... brush, flux, back in the heat until 2200-2300 F (as measured by thermocouple.)

Soak a few minutes until stack is uniform in color.

Gentle taps, rapidly along the entire billet (both sides)
Brush and flux and get back in the forge before it is even orange heat.
Repeat 3-4 times until the "thud" is more of a "smack"

Soak at welding temp (2200-2300F) for about 5 min.

Draw out to billet.
Hammer on edges... watch billet start to come apart.
Swear.
Throw entire thing out garage door onto driveway.
Swear.
Walk over, pick it up to cool off in slag bucket... place in trash.
Swear a whole lot more, grumble about wasted expensive steel etc.

As far as I can tell, my forge is running rich and should not really be causing the issue and it seems to be at the correct temp according to the thermocouple.

I am about to go back to just using monosteel.

Any ideas??
 
Also, the TC in a hot forge is mostly reading the flame temp … not the billet temp. It isn't much use for welding damascus. Learn to "read" the color and shadows of the billet.

TIP:
stick a coat hanger wire into the forge and pull it out after a second or two. Stick it in the borax, then put it back in and push it against the hot billet. If the billet is a welding temp, the wire will stick to the billet. To get it off, just twist the wire and pull.

Other tips:
Stick/mig/tig weld up the corners of the billet while it is clamped in the vise. On a longer billet, weld a bead down at the center on each side. Weld the handle on. Grind the edges even, wire brush off any stray grit, and weld up as normal.

A billet of six 1/8" thick 1.25X4" bars is a good learning billet.

Work the billet from end to end. When it is fully welded, you should see no dark lines on the side when at welding heat.
 
DirtDiver61 said:
Heat to warm, flux.
Brush, heat to red(ish) brush, flux.. back in the heat until yellowish... brush, flux, back in the heat until 2200-2300 F (as measured by thermocouple.)

Any ideas??
Click to expand...
I have seen a couple guys that have had unsuccessful welds doing this. I remember a fellow a little while back with a similar post and he heated, brushed and fluxed several times before welding and couldn't get it to stick.

I think the problem with it is heating, fluxing and letting it cool a bit to flux again before welding can cause more scale than it prevents.

I am definitely not an expert, but this is what has worked for me.

Heat it up to dull red, tap to close up the steel layers, flux, heat to welding temp and go straight to welding by lightly hitting. Lightly flux real quick, stick it back in the forge and repeat about 3 times (with gradually harder hits) before aggressively drawing out.

Also, soak it for a little longer than you think is good, but don't get it too hot. Don't be afraid to turn down the forge slightly if it is overheating, and give it a longer soak. I remember Devin T. saying that the soak time is more important than high heat, and you should heat carbon steels to weld at no higher than 2250F.
 
thanks for the replies guys, I'll take these things into consideration on my next attempt. damascus has been a really frustrating endeavor for me :/
 
Ian Fifelski said:
I think the problem with it is heating, fluxing and letting it cool a bit to flux again before welding can cause more scale than it prevents.
Click to expand...

I'll also say that I'm no expert, but the only major difference in what I do is that i don't use flux. I stopped after my 2nd failed weld a few years ago.
 
Around 20 years ago I tried my hand at making damascus by hand. I think once or twice I managed to get me a real low layer billet forged up. What I discovered when I tried to make a blade from one of the billet is there were always inclusions. Nothing wrong with making mono steel blades but if you need some damascus buy some already made. I'm sure DevinT or a dozens of others would gladly sell you some.
 
Raymond Richard said:
Around 20 years ago I tried my hand at making damascus by hand. I think once or twice I managed to get me a real low layer billet forged up. What I discovered when I tried to make a blade from one of the billet is there were always inclusions. Nothing wrong with making mono steel blades but if you need some damascus buy some already made. I'm sure DevinT or a dozens of others would gladly sell you some.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I have purchased damascus.. but it is far less satisfying to me than creating it from scratch yourself. I'd like to be able create my own with repeatable results. I know it wont be any crazy mosaic patterns like others can do, but people have been making pattern welded blades for centuries with far less available equipment than even I have so I know it can be done, I am just trying to figure out where I am going wrong.
 
There are many makers in your area. Make some friends and go vist one that has a power hammer or press. Take you pre-welded billets amd a couple six-packs of good beer. Listen twice as much as you talk. After welding the billets up and folding them five or six times, you can take them home to clean up and draw out by hand.

On the same note, many folks who make damascus (and sell it) will be glad to make a billet up, fold/twist/pattern and surface grind it, and send you the un-drawn out billet. I used to order it that way often. This is very useful if you want to forge blades with integral bolsters. I used to get Chris Marks to send it to me as 1" round bars after twisting.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
There are many makers in your area. Make some friends and go vist one that has a power hammer or press. Take you pre-welded billets amd a couple six-packs of good beer. Listen twice as much as you talk. After welding the billets up and folding them five or six times, you can take them home to clean up and draw out by hand.

On the same note, many folks who make damascus (and sell it) will be glad to make a billet up, fold/twist/pattern and surface grind it, and send you the un-drawn out billet. I used to order it that way often. This is very useful if you want to forge blades with integral bolsters. I used to get Chris Marks to send it to me as 1" round bars after twisting.
Click to expand...

That reminds me, I need to change my profile. I moved, live in Eastern NC now. Have yet to find anyone nearby... I actually have an order in with Salem Straub for a pc of damascus to make an integral out of.
 
NC and VA have a bunch of makers. IIRC, Western NC has a LOT of them … they even hold classes at Haywood college.
 
I would do 7 hours if I wanted to take a weekend class. I usually consider 5 hours a day trip. Leaver at 5AM, get there at 10AM, spend 4-5 hours, go home and be back in time for an evening supper.

Ashokan is 7-8 hours for me, and I don't mind at all.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
I would do 7 hours if I wanted to take a weekend class. I usually consider 5 hours a day trip. Leaver at 5AM, get there at 10AM, spend 4-5 hours, go home and be back in time for an evening supper.

Ashokan is 7-8 hours for me, and I don't mind at all.
Click to expand...

I'd be all for it, if I didnt have 3 small children 5 and under in tow.. 7 hrs in the car with them is, well... less than enjoyable.
 
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