Yoshikane Usuba knife sharpening?

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Oct 13, 2010
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My dad just got one of these and I am on the fence about it as well. It is by far the sharpest knife I have ever worked with and cuts through large tough veggies like squash with absolutely no effort. It seems to be flat on one side, and beveled on the other. How would I go about sharpening it? Probably not the same notch sharpener I use for the rest of my knives. I am afraid Id get it, itd be sharp as hell for the first few weeks but then Id never get it to that same level again.

Anyone have experience with yoshikane knives and would like to comment? Thanks!
 
My only experience is with their double-beveled knives.

Sharpening an usuba can be done as an art or as a science. In either case, they're very tricky. If you sharpen freehand, trying sending an email to Jon Broida, Ken Schwartz, or Dave Martell to see if they could provide any advice and pointers. Jon was recently trained by professional knife sharpeners in Sakai, Japan to sharpen and restore knives; Ken's a very details-oriented guy who sharpens and restores knives with the best of them; and Dave's work and reputation precede him in many places. Also, while all three sharpen professionally, they're often more than happy to help people learn how to do what they do (and should you screw up too badly, all three have the tools to restore your usuba to new or better condition).

I don't mean to talk up those three merely because I've learned bunches from them, but because usuba are the type of knife where the wrong sharpening will just kill its performance.

Best of luck.
 
pepe.....usuba's are HARD to sharpen......single bevelled knives in general are hard for most to sharpen....usuba's are the hardest of the bunch.....there is alot going on in those knives.....it's not as simple as it's flat on one side and has an automatic angle on the other......the other problem is most do not come perfect from the factory.....no matter how expensive they might be.....ryan
 
Thanks guys, maybe Ill hold off on the usuba then until I get a bit better at sharpening. WOuld be a pity to drop that much coin on a knife and not be able to return it to that same level of sharpness every again. Kind of a pity though, I have never, ever used a knife so sharp...
 
I'd trust the two guys' advice who posted above.

Also, if this is the SKD steel Yoshi, it has been known to give some sharpeners fits. :)

You may want to consider their Nakiri.
Close to the same profile and blade length without the complicated edge.

I do have a Yoshi gyuto and love it.
Thicker spined fella than some of the other Japanese lasers, but thin at the edge and can get it to a white hot sharpness.
 
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Nakkiri is easier to sharpen, but it'll never be as sharp. edited to clarify - What I mean is that it'll never cut like an usuba - it could be as sharp or sharper but the differences between how single bevel and double bevel knives cut will keep them from behaving the same (on thick, binding vegetables, it's a plus for the nakkiri).

Also, the usuba is made from one the Hitachi blue paper steels and not that infernal SKD-11 stuff (actually amazing steel, but not a fan of 7° edges).
 
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Nakkiri is easier to sharpen, but it'll never be as sharp. edited to clarify - What I mean is that it'll never cut like an usuba - it could be as sharp or sharper but the differences between how single bevel and double bevel knives cut will keep them from behaving the same (on thick, binding vegetables, it's a plus for the nakkiri).

Yep, that is a better way to put it. :)

Also, the usuba is made from one the Hitachi blue paper steels and not that infernal SKD-11 stuff (actually amazing steel, but not a fan of 7° edges).

V2 steel is also available, I think, in the sister knives of Kumagoro if the tool steel of SKD is not desired.
 
Single edge knives are easy to sharpen. Use a Japanese water stone 6000 grit and use your finger tips to hold the edge against the stone at the current angle of the blade. A few strokes should do it unless the edge is really dull. Then you can send it to Korin in NYC and they will sharpen it like new for $15. Look up Korin at www.korin.com.
 
oh dear lord... you should send your knife to someone which knows how to sharpen them properly. chisle ground knifes are a bit harder to sharpen then other knifes but its not impossible if you know what your doing.
 
Gee guys, it's not a magic sword, it's just a knife. I have had several Usubas. Some have the traditional single side bevel and some have the more familiar western double-sided grind. I use the asymmetrical grind blades to remove thin slices off the end of a material. In that usage you sort of plane slices off the rest of the material nice and straight. I don't like the asymmetrical grind when I want to cut straight through the middle of something. Anyway, just put most of your effort into honing the beveled side at a low angle close to the original grind. Then very lightly (no more than 4 light strokes) hone the other side using edge-forward strokes (at about 10 to 15 degrees) to remove a burr and strengthen the geometry of the edge. You might follow by stropping or using light edge-trailing honing strokes for a half dozen passes. This should be as sharp as you need.
 
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I forgot how you started out your question: "Probably not the same notch sharpener I use for the rest of my knives. You shouldn't be sharpening any knife that you paid more than $10.00 for with a notch sharpener. I recommend at least something as refined as a fine/ultrafine double-sided diamond hone or 1000 grit waterstone and a fine ceramic hone for deburring.
 
If it is double beveled, it really isn't an usuba. And that is awful advise on sharpening a proper usuba. The back is supposed to be flat. That is why the back is concave, so there are only two points of contact with the stone when laid down flat, and it avoids any convexing issues that would happen if it were actually flat.
 
Regarding C-9's comment: "And that is awful advise on sharpening a proper usuba. The back is supposed to be flat. That is why the back is concave, so there are only two points of contact with the stone when laid down flat, and it avoids any convexing issues that would happen if it were actually flat."

I went back to further qualify my suggestion about light elevated honing on the "flat side"--I realized that it was not clear how little that I intended this to be done. It is really intended to deburr the edge and remove any tendency of the edge to curve towards the flat side. The intent is an edge that is beveled on one side with maybe a few microns of bevel on the "flat side". The intent is to avoid an edge that instantly folds over towards the flat side when any pressure is applied. There is no structural support on the flat side once the edge tips over the plane of its grind. Even before it tips over the structure is subject to column-buckling failure. The edge is stronger if you remove the burr and bias it slightly (much less than a millimeter) towards the beveled size. This will not impact cutting performance, but will enhance strength.

The concave surface on the flat side is much like the concave surface on a straight razor. It provides relief behind the edge to reduce drag and provides a natural honing and stropping surface, but as razor makers have noted for over 100 years when you hone (with a stone) at nearly zero degrees you develop a tenacious burr that needs to be cut off. This is done with miniscule super-elevated honing then slight rehoning. This gets you ready for stropping. The stropping not only polishes the edge it also aligns it to the center of the bevel where it has better support. When you create a knife edge that resembles an asymmetric straight razor blade you need to take care of some of the same needs plus the additional weakness caused by an edge only supported on one side.

Now you can try for the perfect edge, but that's not the direction I would give a novice working his way up from using a notch sharpener. I think he will get the most usefulness out of his knife if he sharpens it himself and uses it often. A sharpening job that gets him 95% performance is better than pushing him to expensive professional service. If his knife is reserved reverently rather than used because it is too expensive and too much trouble to maintain it "properly" the knife will be wasted. In addition there is much to be learned from using kitchen knives and sharpening them that is missed if he goes down that road.
 
Its the proper way to sharpen an usuba. You should be learning how to use an usuba properly, not learning how to sharpen an usuba improperly. It will also not inherently fail instantly just because it is not supported on one side, it is simply that, less supported. If you take a knife that is sharpened to 15 degrees per side, and hit the board with it at a 30 degree angle so there is no support above the edge, it isn't going to spontaneously fail either. Its also the proper method not to develop a bur on the flat side, but use that side to remove a burr and stop there. Sharpening at 0 degrees compared to some plane that is arbitrary relative to a stone doesn't magically make a bur appear either. If a razors thickness were made so it sharpened at 45 degrees combined, it would sharpen as such. Adding a microbevel isn't something that makes sharpening easier either. It is an added complexity.

In other words, your advice is still awful, and I fully advise anyone who has bought an usuba to either consult proper sources and sharpen it properly, or return the knife, because there are far more useful knives out there if you don't want to sharpen it properly.
 
C-9, Tell you what, after you have been sharpening things for 50 years like I have maybe you will start to grasp what I am saying. For now I don't have time to try and push through your closed mind.
 
i make chisel grind knives and the way i sharpen them is to work up a burr that rolls to the flat side. i never put a stone or anything abrasive to the flat side. i remove the burr with the slotted paper wheel but a strop will also work. you can go from one side to the other with the strop or the paper wheel.

if anyone needs a knife sharpened send me an email rje196021@gmail.com

here is a vid of a chisel ground blade i made cutting free hanging newspaper. the edge is facing up and all i am doing is shaking the handle. gravity does the rest http://knifetests.com/kII.html a few more vids http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=51941310 http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=43364157
 
C-9, Tell you what, after you have been sharpening things for 50 years like I have maybe you will start to grasp what I am saying. For now I don't have time to try and push through your closed mind.

50 years of doing it wrong and spouting or spreading misinformation are not good credentials.
 
Let's try to find a better way to disagree than to denigrate another member.
Jeff Clark has been one of the great resources we have on sharpening.
 
The usuba is not a general purpose knife. If you have an usuba, and you don't want to use it as an usuba, why did you buy an usuba when there exist far better alternatives? Don't try to make an usuba into a all purpose knife because it isn't one. Sharpen it properly, and use it for what it is good at. That does not exclude using it for other things, but you should not be designing the edge around using it for other things.

I went back to further qualify my suggestion about light elevated honing on the "flat side"--I realized that it was not clear how little that I intended this to be done. It is really intended to deburr the edge and remove any tendency of the edge to curve towards the flat side. The intent is an edge that is beveled on one side with maybe a few microns of bevel on the "flat side".

This happens when you work the the back flat on the stone, just enough to deburr. There is no point to raising a microbevel. The fact that you have use the form of the knife to hold the angle ensures that the angle is consistent as well.

The intent is to avoid an edge that instantly folds over towards the flat side when any pressure is applied. There is no structural support on the flat side once the edge tips over the plane of its grind.

This is BS, if you did the same thing with a normally sharpened knife, you wouldn't have instantaneous failure. If you do experience instantaneous failure, then it is your failure in sharpening the knife and leaving a weak burr that folds over. This is a test anyone can do, even with a double bevel knife.

angledblade.png


Lets not forget some basic tools like the plane don't have support directly behind the edge in the direction they are cutting. Anyone who whittles with their knives can also attest to this fact because they edges do not instantly fail. We're comparing merely hitting hitting some wood with an edge compared to actually cutting into wood. Its not the fact that there's no support behind the edge, it simply has to do with the toughness/hardness/durability of the knife.

whittling.png


As the knife moves down, a load is placed on the edge in the opposite direction. However, it can clearly be seen that there is no support directly behind that edge shown as the empty gap marked with blue crosshatch.

The edge is stronger if you remove the burr and bias it slightly (much less than a millimeter) towards the beveled size.

Honestly, I don't know how one can bias a burr. Either you mean you produce a bevel less than 1mm in size or you mean you only change the angle by whatever it is equivalent to in 1mm of movement.

The flat polished area on the back should be less than 1mm anyways. 1mm is not a small amount when talking about these knives. The only place it is really permissible to put a bevel on the back is on the heel of a deba. That is because that part is used less to fillet, but it is used to shop through the spines of the fish.

Protection against column buckling only occurs up to the angle you increased it by, so if you're only changing the angle by 1mm, it only gives you 1mm more play before such alleged column buckling occurs.

This will not impact cutting performance, but will enhance strength.

Its true that it will increase strength, but it does affect cutting performance. Cutting happens on an extremely small scale, and if the microbevel is large enough to significantly alter the edge strength, that is significantly larger than the edge radius, then it is likely that it changes the angle that the edge cuts at and the displacement it causes on a small scale, changing the finish of the cut. Now some people may argue that the finish of the cut doesn't matter, but then why an usuba?

The concave surface on the flat side is much like the concave surface on a straight razor. It provides relief behind the edge to reduce drag and provides a natural honing and stropping surface,

That is if you use it as a honing and stropping guide and don't add a microbevel.

as razor makers have noted for over 100 years when you hone (with a stone) at nearly zero degrees you develop a tenacious burr that needs to be cut off.

This is BS. Most razor honing doctrine now days is based on the idea of working both sides to avoid creating a burr. 0 degrees relative to what? Theres also no such thing as 0 degrees, and therefore sharpening at 0 degrees can not have any bearing on the edge. The only issues would be sharpening too accut, which is not 0 degrees, or too thin or such.

0degrees.png


Heres some diagrams of some hypothetical blade designs and closeups. 1) A fat spined straight with a rather large included angle, 2) A slimmer straight, 3) A single beveled blade, possibly a razor, 4) A frameback, or possibly a normal knife in a clip-on jig, and 5) A knife held at a similar angle during sharpening. With the exception of the first, all of them are meant to have approximately the same angle, and the similar thickness right behind the edge. Get close enough, and the arc of the concavity loses significance, and so does asymmetry, or whether or not it is even hollow ground. This is the scale that burrs develop on. Why would a burr care about the macro difference in the form of the blade? The only one that is different is the one that is at a different andle, and that would still be sharpened at "0 degrees" simply 0 degrees relative to its faces.

When you create a knife edge that resembles an asymmetric straight razor blade you need to take care of some of the same needs plus the additional weakness caused by an edge only supported on one side.

Outside of microtomes, asymmetrical straights just happen to be Japanese. The issue with razors is trying not to raise a bur in the first place. That has nothing to do with sharpening at "0 degrees." It has everything to do with not overworking one side too much.

Now you can try for the perfect edge, but that's not the direction I would give a novice working his way up from using a notch sharpener. I think he will get the most usefulness out of his knife if he sharpens it himself and uses it often. A sharpening job that gets him 95% performance is better than pushing him to expensive professional service. If his knife is reserved reverently rather than used because it is too expensive and too much trouble to maintain it "properly" the knife will be wasted. In addition there is much to be learned from using kitchen knives and sharpening them that is missed if he goes down that road.

When did I say he should use pro services? Why can't he get "100%" himself, or at least not get 95% of what he could get himself? In fact, when did anyone say he should use pro services? What was said was that most of the pros who do specialize in Japanese kitchen knives are usually a helpful bunch, and you should be able to find at least one that would help you for free, or supply you with equipment to sharpen yourself.

Sharpening a Japanese chisel ground knife is arguably easier to do than a double beveled one, as long as you know how to, and you are interfering with that. The front bevel should be worked to expose new steel, either flat to the bevel like a scandi, or at an angle like conventional knife. Then the back is worked just enough to produced a ring of polished flat at the edge and enough to deburr the knife.

An usuba is wasted if trying to sharpen it to be a general purpose knife because it isn't a general purpose knife, and it will never do general purpose particularly well. An usuba should be used to do things it excels at.

Tell you what, after you have been sharpening things for 50 years like I have maybe you will start to grasp what I am saying. For now I don't have time to try and push through your closed mind.

You might know something about sharpening, and you might have 50 years under your belt, but it doesn't mean you aren't wrong. It just means you're stubborn and close minded because you think you're right thanks to having 50 years under your belt. And when it comes to usubas and chisel ground knives, I'm rather inclined to think that you aren't.
 
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