ZDP-189 or VG-10 Delica for cardboard?

T

trugracie

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Wanting to get a Delica for cutting lots of cardboard at work. Heart is pretty set on a Delica, so other knife suggestions are not really what I want.
What metal do you recommend?
The strong spine of the ZDP-189 with saber grind, or the thin blade VG-10 profile?
 
I'd go with the FFG VG-10. While ZDP would be nice, the thinner blade stock and grind should be a serious help for slicing through cardboard (I assume the hollow ground one will create more drag, and just isn't as suited). If you polish up the edge real nicely, it should hold the edge for a long time. You'll just have to touch it up more frequently, but it can hold a very nice and fine edge that will just fly through cardboard. I've cut a decent amount of cardboard with my Delica (FFG), and it works really great, especially after stropping the edge
 
FFG VG-10 will work well and will be easier to sharpen. A box cutter will work even better. Use the right tool for the job.
 
I'd go with VG-10. I have heard that ZDP is a bear to sharpen. A softer steel with frequent touch ups would be best.
 
I carry and use my Delica in VG-10 all the time, while the Delica in ZDP sits at home. I prefer the VG-10 because it is much more stain-less, takes a fine edge, and is easy to touch up, when compared to the ZDP.
 
Personally, I usually reach for a $1 box cutter from the hardware store for this. When a blade gets dull, you just reverse it or replace it. I am talking about the kind of box cutter that uses single edge razor blades. The replacement blades are cheap and work better than a pocket knife.... at least better than any pocket knife that I have used.
 
I like the zdp. Lasts much longer between sharpening's. As for being harder to sharpen, it will take a little longer but use a diamond sharpener and it will speed things up.
 
Thanks for all the input guys!
Sounds like I'm getting the FFG then. And for those of you who suggest a box cutter, it is very true. Problem with it is that box cutters are just that. Its really just a one trick pony, why carry an extra item when there's a more versatile tool.
Besides, theres just no cool factor on the BC. :-)
 
ZDP gets my vote. I've been EDCing a knife in ZDP and VG10 both for the past 8 months (ZDP Lum and Dragonfly). ZDP's really not hard to touch up on the Sharpmaker, plus ZDP takes a very fine edge and holds it. VG10 is good steel, but it's not even close to the same league when we're talking edge retention.

Keep your eyes out for the FFG ZDP Delica Spyderco has coming out in the 2011 catalog. If you want a dedicated slicer that won't dull any time soon, that may be the ticket.
 
Another vote for VG-10 here. I used a ZDP Caly Jr. as my EDC for years and recently switched to a VG-10 Caly 3.5 for my main EDC. VG-10 is just an awesome blade steel. It has a great balanced combination of strengths, including, super easy to touch up and sharpen, takes a great super fine edge, great corrosion resistance, nice luster, excellent edge retention (although not as extreme as ZDP). But extreme edge retention at the expense of certain other things is not ideal unless you are in a situation where you need extreme edge retention and can't touch up as frequently as you'd like. I'm just preferring the overall performance of VG-10 over ZDP-189. For me VG-10 is fun to touch up and sharpen whereas ZDP is a bit of a hassle and for me, while it holds at 95% seemingly forever, it loses that fresh off the stones 100% feel faster than VG-10 and takes longer to restore it. Whereas a few quick strokes on the Sharpmaker and a VG-10 blade is razor sharp again.

Re the box cutter, I simply prefer the experience of cutting with a superior quality tool like a Spyderco.
 
mongatu said:
But extreme edge retention at the expense of certain other things is not ideal unless you are in a situation where you need extreme edge retention and can't touch up as frequently as you'd like. For me VG-10 is fun to touch up and sharpen whereas ZDP is a bit of a hassle and for me, while it holds at 95% seemingly forever, it loses that fresh off the stones 100% feel faster than VG-10 and takes longer to restore it. Whereas a few quick strokes on the Sharpmaker and a VG-10 blade is razor sharp again.
Click to expand...

I respect your opinion, but I'm a little curious about a few things you posted. First off, I'm not sure how much ZDP sacrifices. It holds an edge much longer due to a much higher hardness, is only slightly less stainless than VG10, and around the same toughness. ZDP can be taken down to even lower angles than VG10, making an even sharper edge. I don't see very many VG10 blades with a 15* inclusive angle.

Second, I don't believe ZDP loses the "100% fresh off the stones edge" faster than VG10. Both are fine grained steels, without the huge toothy carbides people equate to D2 or S30V/S90V. ZDP is finer than VG10 because it's a powder metal as opposed to an ingot steel, plus it's much harder. Why is VG10 supposed to hold that initial edge better? A better explanation might be that you're using too much pressure with the Sharpmaker and ZDP, and raising a very hard to detect microburr. Myself and others have found that ZDP likes a very light touch with the UF ceramics. A few swipes once a week has kept my ZDP hair whittling sharp. It may be a pain in the ass to reprofile with a Sharpmaker, but ZDP touches up just as nicely as any of the other high end steels I use.

Not trying to attack you, just raising some points that I'm curious about. :thumbup:
 
have several enduras in zdp & vg10 . about 6 models in ffg, including one of the last zdps did by krein. it's true the zdp holds edge longer but my cutting tests place the zdp at 20 to 25% better than the vg10. all with polished bevels. from an economical perspective does the zdp have an advantage? if treking on a long backpacking journey the zdp might have an advantage since it might not require sharpening aids in your pack. at home or factory vg10 could be touched up frequently as needed. with a good edge vg10 can be stropped with cardboard.---dennis
 
Handwrecker said:
I respect your opinion, but I'm a little curious about a few things you posted. First off, I'm not sure how much ZDP sacrifices. It holds an edge much longer due to a much higher hardness, is only slightly less stainless than VG10, and around the same toughness. ZDP can be taken down to even lower angles than VG10, making an even sharper edge. I don't see very many VG10 blades with a 15* inclusive angle.

Second, I don't believe ZDP loses the "100% fresh off the stones edge" faster than VG10. Both are fine grained steels, without the huge toothy carbides people equate to D2 or S30V/S90V. ZDP is finer than VG10 because it's a powder metal as opposed to an ingot steel, plus it's much harder. Why is VG10 supposed to hold that initial edge better? A better explanation might be that you're using too much pressure with the Sharpmaker and ZDP, and raising a very hard to detect microburr. Myself and others have found that ZDP likes a very light touch with the UF ceramics. A few swipes once a week has kept my ZDP hair whittling sharp. It may be a pain in the ass to reprofile with a Sharpmaker, but ZDP touches up just as nicely as any of the other high end steels I use.

Not trying to attack you, just raising some points that I'm curious about. :thumbup:
Click to expand...

Well I respect your opinion too but the initial edge holding with respect to ZDP hasn't been my experience although I certainly agree ZDP can take lower angles than VG-10. Maybe my experience is different because I'm doing something wrong. :)

As for touching up ZDP on the Sharpmaker, I have little experience with that as I find it too slow with ZDP and usually use DMT benchstones and waterstones for my ZDP blades.

Obviously, ZDP offers higher performance in certain respects, but I just prefer to sharpen and use VG-10, like the ease with which I get what I regard as a better edge, albeit 30 degree inclusive and not some super low angle. I tried very low angles with one of my ZDP Caly Jrs. and while it worked (i.e., held it), I just wasn't all that impressed with it, aside from the novelty of it. It's all just imo and we all are entitled to our opinions, and I'm not saying that you are wrong about anything. I'm just not a big fan of it any longer after using it for several years and have found I prefer VG-10. Obviously, ymmv. :)
 
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Nothing works on cardboard like a utility blade. I am really hoping spyderco comes out with m4 utility blades!
 
Lenoxsaw.com has patented bimetal utility knife blades. Their latest ones also have a gold TiN coating on the edge, and two extra notches on top. Irwin is now also selling bimetal utility knife blades without an edge coating. Since I believe Lenox has the patent on bimetal blades for utility knives, I think they're making Irwin's blades also. Hard to believe that after years of bimetal hacksaw blades and Sawzall blades, nobody else thought to patent utility knife bimetal blades.

The only place I've seen Lenox blades is at Home Depot. Irwin blades are sold there, Lowes, and Walmart. Irwin claims twice the life of regular blades, Lenox claims triple the life of Stanley's blade, maybe due to the TiN coating. I'm guessing they're using M2 for the edge, not M4. They're pricey, but I wouldn't use any other blades to flex and flush cut with. (Use safety glasses, though!) All that, and made in the USA.

So Sal doesn't have to invest millions of dollars in a utility knife blade factory. But who knows, maybe he could convince Lenox to make a "sprint run" of M4 edged blades and print the Spyder on them. But likely? No.
 
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Used both an S30V Native and my old VG10 D4 for cutting a lot of cardboard a couple years ago at the bike shop. Finally got sick of multiple sharpenings a week and switched to a box cutter for the task. If you are planning on cutting cardboard... and like to keep your edges sharp... just do it the easy way I rock out a box cutter with replacable blades.

BTW, I love my old D4 in VG10- so much so that I bought TWO Enduras in VG-10 to try out for EDC even though I had a nice E4 in ZDP not being used!
 
ZDP will hold an edge four times longer than VG-10 cutting cardboard. That's my experience. And ZDP isn't hard at all to sharpen if you have the right tools (Lansky kit and Spyderco Sharpmaker).
 
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