ZDP 189 Steel

[jvan]

I have used the search function and read just about every post I found that mentioned ZDP189 steel and haven't found what I am looking for. I would greatly appreciate if someone could make comparisons with the other common blade steels in use today. How does edge retention compare? Durability? Strenghth etc.? Thanks in advance for any help as I am trying to decide whether or not to buy the upcoming ZDP189 Ti Kershaw Leek.

John

 

[kel_aa]

I have no first hand experience with this harder ultrahigh carbon stainless, but I hope the following is meaningful:

After knowing the qualities and potential of a steel, you'll still have to decide whether those qualities are realized by the design and implementation of the knife. An analogy would be transitioning from building wooden to steel ships. Would you use the same thickness of steel in the same sized ship as the wood it replaced?

For example, I think the ZDP Delica is fairly ridiculous, compared to the ZDP Calypso Jr.

The Leek I think has potential to benefit from the said steel.

I also think it is backwards that the knife manufactures for the most part need "new" steels to make "improvements". Sort of like people who look toward technology or objects to solve social problems. "If only guns had electrodes and wires that connected to your brain so it wouldn't fire unless you really wanted it to fire there would be no more accidental discharges..." Forget ZDP10000x, how about you release some M2 at 64 HRC? How about some full hard 1095? No, the electrodes, man, we need the to wait for the electrodes....

 

[gud4u]

I'm also curious about the overall performance qualities of ZDP189.

I read the 'ooohs' and 'ahs' raving about out-of-the-box sharpness, edge-holding for slicing open envelopes and such. All raves - no 'problems' whatsoever.

Nobody has an edge-chipping problem? No snapped blades? No dropped knives with tips snapped off?

The only 'negative' I've read about ZDP189 is the occasional post about difficulty sharpening with a Sharpmaker.

I'd like to see a good Cliff Stamp test-to-destruction report.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

I also think it is backwards that the knife manufactures for the most part need "new" steels to make "improvements".

Better steels allow for better designs, unfortunately in many cases the materials are often not better for specific designs. There is a common misconceptions that certain steels are just better overall, pick up any tool steel book and this is obviously wrong, they were all developed for a reason.

You first look towards the performance required, then determine the geometry which creates it and lastly find the steel which has the best set of properties to match it. Guys like Wilson do this which is why he offers steels from 420HC to S125V and both of them are "better" for certain knives depending on what the user wants.

Back to ZDP-189, I have been meaning to compare it to S30V and SPGS. I want to do a cardboard run first as it is pretty standard but have as of yet just not got enough material as all of these materials can be expected to cut a lot. I am waiting for roughly 50 m for the first run, and this means I need 50*5*3 so 3/4 of a km of similar weight.

Spyderco has released some CATRA data on ZDP-189 and it is very high, improved over S30V for example and this should well represent its slicing edge retention on abrasive media at moderate edge angles. Of course there is also push cutting edge retention and low angle performance.

I would like to see the actual perspective in detail of the Japanese high chromium viewpoint vs the Crucible vanadium based steels for cutlery. Specifically I would like to know the carbide composition of ZDP-189 after heat treatement, what are the size of the chroimum carbides compared to the vanadium carbides in S30/S90V.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

For example, I think the ZDP Delica is fairly ridiculous, compared to the ZDP Calypso Jr.

Thats funny. I just got two of the new Delica ZDP 189 folders today and there is sure nothing ridiculous about the way they cut. They are simply the sharpest knives out of the box I've ever bought since buying and handling several of the CJs for the rebuilds I did to them both for myself and for forum members.

ZDP189 is a steel that is a pleasure to use. I have not heard of any problems with this steel outside of the warping that occurred with the laminated Calypso Jr. blades. Half of all I handled had some minor warp to them. These Delica solid blades are not warped though. At least the three I've seen are straight. Also the bevel is steeper on the thicker Delica blade. It is most likely to do with the grind. Flat grind knives like the CJ would not benefit from an angle like these Delicas come with from the factory. I think Spyderco readily admits that these are sold in an effort to 'test the market'.

Personally I applaud the efforts of Spyderco for their innovation and interest in newer better steels. Its one of the reasons they are trend setters in this industry and another of several reasons why they are hands down my favorite knife company.

STR

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Thats funny. I just got two of the new Delica ZDP 189 folders today and there is sure nothing ridiculous about the way they cut. They are simply the sharpest knives out of the box I've ever bought since buying and handling several of the CJs for the rebuilds I did to them both for myself and for forum members.

They would cut the same way if they were made out of 420J2. My Calypso Jr. in ZDP-189 was very sharp, but I have handled many other Spyderco's in other steels which were significantly sharper. I would assume by ridiculous that he was speaking more of the suitability of the properties of that steel to that design which is in general a more rugged pattern and would be better suited by a more rugged steel something like 12C27. I would not call it ridiculous but can see the point.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

They might cut the same at first but I doubt for near as long.

At this point the jury is still out IMO on ZDP and what it is capable of as well as how tough or not so tough it is. I haven't seen enough to draw conclusionw as to where it ranks just yet among the other steels in those areas. Mostly all I can speak of is that it does stay sharp a good long while. It will be interesting for me to use it next week cutting fiberglass tape up like I do to mail packages. That will at least give me an idea of where it stands with the other steels cutting that material.

STR

 

[kel_aa]

How much does a ZDP Delica or Caly Jr or Leek run for, by the way? I assume it is at about twice, if not more than the price of VG10?

You first look towards the performance required, then determine the geometry which creates it and lastly find the steel which has the best set of properties to match it.

Do you agree with this statement of Cliff, STR? I find it quite logical. Spyderco essentially did the opposite. They found a new steel, and stuck it in an old design. This alone doesn't mean it's illogical. It may be quite practical.

I think the ZDP Delica is fairly ridiculous, compared to the ZDP Calypso Jr because:

1. Spyderco can at this time only produce and the market absorb so many ZDP knives.
2. ZDP is reported to have, and probably does have certain advantages.
3. The advantage can only be realized best in one of the two designs.

Therefore they should they devote their attention to using ZDP on the design that better utilizes the advantage afforded by the new material.

If you can use ZDP, and can afford to buy it, then you don't need to be using the geometry of a Delica.

 

[kel_aa]

STR, I think you misunderstood me. I didn't say ZDP was bad, or the Delica was bad, or even the combination is not superior in certain performance aspects to the VG10 Delica. Just that due to the reasons I stated above, it doesn't seem a good enough idea, compared to producing more ZDP Calypso Jr's.

You mention cutting fiberglass tape. Would a Calypso Jr be inferior blade design for that task?

 

[STR]

Do I agree? Well, yes and no. Cliff is most always logical and methodical but I don't always follow his ideals or agree with them.

I've seen the insides of both of the knives in question and compared the springs, the thickness, the edges and profiles as well as many other things that make up a good folder. I've handled both and worked with them and don't see the argument really that ZDP 189 is more suited to one over the other but I do agree somewhat that there are probably some questions on the performance and capability of the steel at this point.

Spyderco didn't really stick the new steel in the 'old design' by the way, they stuck it in the new Delica 4 which is quite a bit different in many ways than the old ones. So I do not follow that line of thinking or agree with it entirely.

Again I do think it is too early to say that the advantages of the ZDP steel can only be utilized in just one design or one geometry or one of two or anything else like that. The steel may surprise. Then again it may disappoint.

I tend to give the benefit of the doubt to Spyderco on the choice of the knives they picked to stick ZDP steel in. Typically they don't just hap hazardly stick steel in a handle and go with it without thinking it through over there in Golden. I'm sure a lot of thinking and discussion was done before hand by the good folks at Spyderco in Col and Japan and that in the end they weighed the pros and cons of it and decided the CJ and the Delica were super platforms to test the steel in. At this point because of past performances and judgements made by Sal and his crew I'd have to say there is a high probability that they made a couple of wise decisons that will prove to be successful and very collectible as well as fun for all of us.

STR

PS EDIT:

I understood you weren't saying the knife was bad. I recently picked up quite a bit of business with many projects coming in at the same time and my cart has been so full that I am shipping out at an unprecedented rate. In the process I'm cutting a lot of that fiberglass lined or reinforced tape and I've found that it is quite a good medium to test your knives on. I sold my upgraded Calypso ZDP so I never got to use it on the tape like I have my others. Some of the tougher thicker edges seem to hold up better to it. The little Buck Strider for example with the Bos Heat treated ATS34 blade just gets after it all day long with that stuff. The D2 and S30V blades I have do well cutting it for long periods of time without needing a touch up. Its just a fun convenient way for me to test the knife I'm carrying but not very scientific I guess. Fun though.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

They might cut the same at first but I doubt for near as long.

ZDP-189 is harder and much more wear resistant and 420J2 is much tougher, more ductile and much more corrosion resistant. Edge retention is dependent on pretty much every materials property to extents depending on the materials being cut and the enviroment. Even Alvin who has a serious dislike of stainless steel will readily admit that 1095 at 66 HRC doesn't radically outperform stainless for cutting meat even when the stainless is much softer due to the effect of the corrosion on 1095.

Do you agree with this statement of Cliff ...

To clearify a point, that statement came from discussions with Alvin Johnston, Phil Wilson and Jerry Busse, and reading the work Mike Swaim did which was later expanded by Joe Talmadge. It was obvious that geometry controlled cutting ability from Mike and Joe's posts and Alvin was the first I saw note that certain steels could not actually take certain geometries, a fact which is still not well known to this day. More recently, Landes and Verhoeven have done fairly rigerous studies on this subject, and users like Sodak have replicated what Johnston had noted earlier and the same general ideas run through fairly consistently.

It is somewhat amusing to note that Alvin and Jerry have similar viewpoints as few would guess it by looking at their knives. Alvin wanted to make the best light use pure cutting knife and Busse wanted a more general extreme use blade. But the process and reasoning by which the developed their designs and steels is very similar. You can see Alvin's development of a "tough" knife currently as he is discussing it on usenet and he very much did not take one of his existing designs and stick a tough steel in it. It would be interesting to see Busse come up with his version of Alvin's primary blades as it would be somewhat amusing and revealing if they both replicated each other designs independently.

-Cliff

 

[kel_aa]

At this point because of past performances and judgements made by Sal and his crew I'd have to say there is a high probability that they made a couple of wise decisons that will prove to be successful and very collectible as well as fun for all of us.

Sucessful and very collectible is different from being functionally optimum.

 

[STR]

Again I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here to Spyderco. I think they have a pretty good idea, perhaps a better grasp of it than anyone else outside of Hitatchi (I think that is who makes the steel right? )what is optimum for this steel and how it will fare.

Functionally optimum? In some of Cliff's tests VG10 has performed well and then shattered apart during other phases of testing so 'functionally optimum' can be something VG10 falls short on as well if you want to look at it that way. In some ways S30V is dysfunctional in some of the formats and geometrys its being used in but it seems to please many makers and end line users just the same. It is so subjective that its a tough call to say what is optimum and what isn't. At least that is how I see it.

STR

 

[kel_aa]

Can anyone quote the price so we can have an idea of the common denominator?

Prehaps I'm mistaken in the price and the rarity of the Calypso Jr in ZDP. If anyone who wants one can have one at or near the original market price, then I withdraw my statements. Then the ZDP Delica would just something extra.

 

[Cliff Stamp]

Ref :

http://www.savsonswordsandknives.com/spdezd.html

I like the blue, it doesn't upset nearly as many people as black grips.

-Cliff

 

[STR]

The Calypso Jr. I bought was $65 and some change for shipping.

The two Delicas I picked up today are going to run me $109.95 each but that is due to my impatience and nothing else. If I was willing to wait till they can be bought at dealers instead of paying MSRP from the Spyderco store I could probably get them for around $70 to $85 each.

I remember reading about ZDP189 back when William and Henry was the only one using it and Spyderco was just talking about it. W&H did a test using it on thick manilla rope comparing it to 440C, 154CM and D2 steel.
Supposedly ZDP got 100 cuts though the rope and was still sharp. D2 got to 30 before dulling and 154Cm got to 18 and 440C 15 before dulling. From the standpoint of a good cutter that is pretty exceptional performance to me and certainly something I'd pay more to get in my pocket. But the fact is you don't have to break the bank to acquire one of these great blades.
STR

 

[STR]

I think its a great looking 'sheeple friendly' folder. Here is a scan of the one I've been carrying today.

STR

 

[kel_aa]

Okay, so the ZDP Delica is not as expensive as I would have thought. However, the availability of the ZDP Calypso Jr has not yet be answered. If you could only have one of them out of ZDP, which would you have? I would take the Calypso Jr in a heartbeat. If ZDP is less resistant to edge chipping than VG10, I certainly don't want it in a "more rugged" Delica. If it is more resistant to chipping than VG10, then I say great, so now we can have the edge thinner, ala Calpyso Jr.

 

[STR]

I've always liked flat grinds better personally. I also consider the CJ to be perhaps the best knife in Spydercos line up of knives. I look forward to the Calypso III coming out because I think the size of it will suit me well compared to the CJ. I like the size of the Delica better than the Calypso Jr. but the blade grind and the choil for the index make the CJ one of the best little gents knives on the planet if you ask me. I consider the blade to be a modified Wharncliff on both but more so on the CJ and being a wharny fan from way back that suits me just fine. I never should have sold my ZDP CJ and to get another now will cost you so if you want one of these do what I did and get it now. The supplies are limited. The way I see it on a run of knives like these is you can pay now or pay later but either way you are going to have to pay.

STR

 

[kel_aa]

It is too bad the economies of scale put the price of VG10 Caly Jr's rather high. From the 40 dollar Delica, add 30 dollars for the Caly Jr. But then you are only like 30 dollars away from the Miltary or Manix.

So you agree you would rather personally have a ZDP Caly Jr out of the two. That makes two of us .