ZDP-189 Vs Super Blue

Buffalohump

Buffalohump

Joined
Sep 7, 2006
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I have a hankering to pick up an Endura in Super Blue.... or ZDP-189. I'm leaning towards the SB purely because I really like that shade of gray but I'm a bit reluctant as I understand it is a high carbon steel and therefore can rust... My concern stems from the fact that I quite often use my pocket knives in making sandwiches, etc and then forget to clean them afterwards.

So whaddaya all say? Has anyone used their Super Blue knives a lot, how does it hold up?
 
Using carbon steel is a good way to learn to clean your knives after using them for food. :/

My experience is you'll develop patina, but not rust (unless you really abuse the knife). The patina is good - it protects against rust. But you can always polish the blades right up again.

Super blue takes an amazing edge. I'm not sure how it holds up hardness-wise against ZDP, but it is no slouch. I'd give it a whirl. You can always sell.
 
Note that the super blue in the Endura is a laminate - you only see the blue at the edge - maybe around a 1/4". Some do not like the fact that the cladding steel(440?)scatches easily - it doesn't bother me. I have a couple of super blues - Endura and Caly 3.5 along with a number of ZDP189's - one of which is the Endura. You will find that the super blue will take an extemely sharp edge(as will the ZDP189), but will not hold it nearly as long as the ZDP. I find I can sometimes go months without sharpening the ZDP, where I am touching up the super blue on a fairly regular basis. That being said, I like both steels. The super blue has a different texture to it which is quite pleasant. One thing about ZDP - you do not want to let it get too dull as it is somewhat of a bear to sharpen - you will need diamonds to get back to the apex before you start working through the grits - at least that has been my experience. As any Spyderco fan would say "Get both of them".
 
Thanks, I appreciate the input. Given this info I think I will shoot for the ZDP-189 seeing as how it is more readily available anyway...
 
Both steels are designed with high wear resistance in mind over other properties. Depending on usage, this can be a huge advantage (and in some cases, a disadvantage.) If they are a better choice or not a better choice than the base VG-10, it really depends on the user himself/herself, in my opinion.

Super Blue gives insane edge retention. It is a very aggressive cutter, takes a nice patina (which some love and some hate), and IMO is easier to sharpen than ZDP-189. If the SB Spyderco is using is similar to that of a few of my chef knives, Super Blue is of acceptable toughness for applications in which toughness is not a major concern, but it is not made for the purpose of being tough. Of it's line, SB is supposed to have the highest wear resistance and lowest toughness and greatest brittleness. So usage can dictate if that is positive. Multiple users have reported that you can 'taste' the metal on food cut with the SB Spydies, so it may not be ideal to some for food prep.

ZDP-189 gives similar edge retention to SB, and IMHO is harder to sharpen, especially at the higher hardness levels. It has ok-to-poor corrosion resistance and is among the worst in that category of all steels Spyderco has ever used. It also is not designed for toughness, so it's generally seen as a cutting/slicer than for harder work in which impact resistance/toughness is needed or corrosion resistance is important. ZDP-189 is brittle like many of the HH steels, although how brittle seems to often be overstated. I have had a ZDP Delica chip on me in which the same situation would not chip the VG-10 D4; however my ZDP-189 Delica can cut multiple times more cardboard than the VG-10 Delica.

In terms of comparing to the VG-10 base, Super Blue and ZDP-189 have edge retention that cannot even really be compared because it is such a dramatic difference, especially when cutting abrasive objects like cardboard. That is their primary design purpose, and they do it very well. VG-10 is going to be much easier to sharpen (you really need decent equipment for ZDP and SB versus anything basic for VG-10), and will have excellent corrosion resistance. VG-10 is also a tough steel, and Spyderco's VG-10 is very tough. I think it is a good bit more so than ZDP-189. VG-10 will also be more affordable. So I think there are pros and cons to each steel.
 
Super blue is good but the endura is no Takayuki or fujiwara. I carry a SB endura every day and while good I don't think it's that much better than VG-10. It's a carbon steel and acts like one, easy to sharpen and holds a decent edge but in the end it's just a carbon steel with a little extra tungsten.

Insane edge retention? Designed for wear resistance? Don't know if I would say all that.

Sharpening is also easy for both, simple stones such as King waterstones are more than capable.

My personal choice is for the VG-10 endura due to ease of sharpening, edge retention, and toughness. I like my SB too but I also like carbon steels.
 
knifenut1013 said:
Super blue is good but the endura is no Takayuki or fujiwara. I carry a SB endura every day and while good I don't think it's that much better than VG-10. It's a carbon steel and ...

Sharpening is also easy for both, simple stones such as King waterstones are more than capable.

My personal choice is for the VG-10 endura due to ease of sharpening, edge retention, and toughness. I like my SB too but I also like carbon steels.
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Fujiwara FKM stainless is AUS8A. VG10 can be very good if hard enough. I have a Spyderco Yang in VG10 that holds an edge for a long time in the kitchen, and I use a maple cutting board. I also have a Tojiro western deba in VG10 that doesn't chip when I slice through lobster tail shells. That knife is a bear and thinks it is a carbon steel.
 
I didn't say fujiwara FKM, the reference was to Teruyasu Fujiwara who produces some of the best blades from white and blue steel. I have to disagree that the FKM series is AUS8 I've sharpened a lot of AUS8 in my day and the FKM series has zero similarities.

Also, Tojiro probably has one of the best heat treatments for VG-10 and is not even comparable to spyderco. Pocket knives are not hardened like kitchen knives, so really, trying to compare them in such a way is just confusing and misleading.
 
knifenut1013 said:
Super blue is good but the endura is no Takayuki or fujiwara. I carry a SB endura every day and while good I don't think it's that much better than VG-10. It's a carbon steel and acts like one, easy to sharpen and holds a decent edge but in the end it's just a carbon steel with a little extra tungsten.

Insane edge retention? Designed for wear resistance? Don't know if I would say all that.

Sharpening is also easy for both, simple stones such as King waterstones are more than capable.

My personal choice is for the VG-10 endura due to ease of sharpening, edge retention, and toughness. I like my SB too but I also like carbon steels.
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AF said:
Nice writeup pnsxyr.
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Thanks! The SuperBlue I have gives excellent wear resistance/edge retention. I find it to do very well with cardboard. Mind you, my usage of that line of steels is more kitchen knife related for harder work in which wear resistance is beneficial. I've used a few of the White and Blue steels and have really liked all of them thus far. I'm a really big fan of the Shirogami/White as well. (with that said, I may not be hard to impress as I am also a huge fan of 1095 and 52100 when the heat treatment is good!)

I'm with you on the VG-10. I think it's an excellent steel and it's all-around good performance is hard to beat. I'm not sure what Spyderco hardens it to, but I find their VG-10 to be very tough, and especially in regards to lateral strain in which the Endura/Delicas often see in usage. I also like the corrosion resistance for a general usage knife. Much like CPM-154, ATS-34, and BG-42, I think VG-10 is a great steel for an EDC folder.

I read somewhere that there were a few different types of blue paper steel with variable carbon/chrome in which more than one is sometimes called "Super Blue" and that the cooling with the 'paper wrapped steels' can vary between water or oil. Any idea how big of a variation this would give?



(Keep in mind you guys are skilled craftsman in this area...unskilled people like me find SB and ZDP to be a little tough to sharpen! :) )
 
There's Blue #2/#1 and White #2/#1 what are used frequently in Japanese kitchen knives. Blue steels have more alloying elements, but the carbon percentages between the two remain the same. You'd be hard pressed to see the difference between a Blue #1 and White #1 steel if both had good heat treatments, so it is really up to the maker as to which steel they are more comfortable with.

Aogami Super (Blue Super) is Blue #1 with more carbon and alloying elements added in.
 
Cynic2701 said:
There's Blue #2/#1 and White #2/#1 what are used frequently in Japanese kitchen knives. Blue steels have more alloying elements, but the carbon percentages between the two remain the same. You'd be hard pressed to see the difference between a Blue #1 and White #1 steel if both had good heat treatments, so it is really up to the maker as to which steel they are more comfortable with.

Aogami Super (Blue Super) is Blue #1 with more carbon and alloying elements added in.
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Thanks! Cool to know!

I've had more experience with White1/2 more than any others and I really like the steel for kitchen knives, at least with whatever treatment Konosuke and a few others use.
 
Don't know why spyderco didn't use Shirogami, it would have been a better choice overall. Better toughness and takes a screaming sharp edge. Blue is nice but it's too brittle for a folder.
 
I just finished installing my new home theater, t.v. and all so there was a lot of cardboard to cut up.
The Stretch ZDP-189 tore through everything, and barely needs touching up.
That to me is impressive.
Cheers
 
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Super Blue stains extremely fast. I literally only left this on the counter for a minute or two after cutting up some meat, first stain :)

Not knocking it though, I've always liked carbon steels.
 
knifenut1013 said:
Don't know why spyderco didn't use Shirogami, it would have been a better choice overall. Better toughness and takes a screaming sharp edge. Blue is nice but it's too brittle for a folder.
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So that isn't just me who finds that Shirogami is easier to sharpen compared to the other steels generally grouped in that category? And I'm not sure of the scientific reasoning behind it, but it seems that both White 1 and 2 are unusually aggressive cutters almost regardless of how I finish them. It seems regardless of whether I finish my White lasers at 320 grit or go all the way up to 1000+ that they still have a ton of bite and a ton of push-cutting capability, and that they hold a razor edge for a very long time.

While I realize how good of a cutter something is largely depends on who sharpens it and the geometry, it just seems White1/White2 cut in a fashion which really stands out compared to other knives I have and that the steel can be both saw and push cut well at the same time?
 
Shirogami is the purest of carbon steels so it's like sharpening a 10xx steel.

It has a very high attainable hardness but does great at about 60-61 too. I like a much higher finish around 5k-6k for Shirogami, 1k feels toothy because it is.
 
knifenut1013 said:
Shirogami is the purest of carbon steels so it's like sharpening a 10xx steel.

It has a very high attainable hardness but does great at about 60-61 too. I like a much higher finish around 5k-6k for Shirogami, 1k feels toothy because it is.
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Do you sharpen many usuba's? I'm looking at one in White #2 and am unsure if I need to pick up different stones. I currently run a Chosera 400/Shapton Pro 1k/ Pro 2k/Shapton Glass 4k/Naniwa Snow White 8k. Should I be looking into softer and/or natural stones?
 
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