Zdp-189

brets-ftw

brets-ftw

Joined
Sep 11, 2010
Messages
2,846
So ive been thinking about the sticky on the maintenance thread about the general order of steels and i believe it goes as follows

420, 420J

440a, 425m, 420hc, 12c27, aus 6

gin-1, ats-55, aus 8, 440c

ats-34, 154cm, vg-10, s60v

bg-42, s90v,s30v

so ive been wondering where zdp-189 would fit in

i personally would put it in the aus 8 section but im curious as to why if its at that same quality level of steel, why more companies arent using it, so far all ive seen is spyderco and possibly benchmade.

so i guess name any other companies that use it and where youd put it

Edit: this is not my idea of the ranking and i know there are many others with different ideas about the ranking but this is just how its put in the sticky on the maintenance section, not my personal ranking
 
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brets-ftw said:
i personally would put it in the aus 8 section
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Why? Do you have any experience with it?


S90V is not easy to sharpen by the average folks here on BladeForums, speaking from experience.

Either S30V needs to go to VG10's level or S90V will make a new section and that's where ZDP will be as well.
 
I'm curious how your ranking system works. Your argument is that ZDP is a lower grade of steel due to few companies using it (Yuna, Spyderco, Kershaw). But S90V is top tier with only Spyderco (Phil Wilson too?) using it? The reason ZDP is not seen in more knives is because it is only produced by Hitachi of Japan. I thought I read somewhere that only Hitachi was allowed to heat treat it, but that may be wrong. ZDP-189 is in no way similar to AUS8 in my opinion.

I believe the order Joe listed those steels in is less about a definite ranking system, and more of a general grouping based on makeup, price and performance.

EDIT - I was just told that Kershaw is allowed to HT ZDP-189. For some reason I thought Hitachi was much more controlling of ZDP.
 
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ZDP-189 is no slouch. It deserves to be put in the upper echelons of edge holding. It's tough to sharpen, but will hold its edge for a good while.

I agree with xtestifyx that it should be in a group with S90V. Speaking of, there's a thread by Ankerson listing steels in categories based on use and edge holding that seems to be spot on. And based off of Jim's (Ankerson) testing, is very accurate. Let me see if I can find it.

Edit: here it is. http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=793481
 
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I'm not sure how you are ranking the steels but ZDP is a very hard (up to 67Rc) ceramic like steel. Edge retention would be in the same area as S90V but toughness is not that high, if abused the edge will chip badly on ZDP.

Too put it in a class it would be more like, ZDP, S90V, M4, 110V, 125V, these are what most consider super premium steels. A step above steels like S30V.
 
grouping of alloys is a relatively fresh concept. as we get into the more involved steels it's somewhat difficult to lump certain alloys into groups. according to jim's & some of knarfengs sisal rope endurance cutting i find grouping a little difficult to achive. jim & frank both concurred that m4 shaded zdp by a large margin. also jim went on to extensively wring out m390. m390 shaded m4 by a decent margin. in my own idea of catagories the results seen to run something like this:
aus 8, vg10, 1095, ---n690, s30, & d2--zdp alone--m4 alone-- & m390 alone. s90 & 110v neck & neck. this are relative & do'nt reflect the tweaked goodies by some japanese makers & just about any of the knives heattreated by phil wilson. sniper bladeworks has turned out 1095 with a hamon that cuts up there with s90. crusader forge s30 triple forged will probably run neck & neck with zdp. grouping of alloys is a shaky concept since same alloys by different makers will show major performance variances. ankersons sisal tests do give a decent idea of performance since he used all knives as made by mainstream companies. however as a sidenote he mentioned these same steels as turned out by wilson were not desiginated since phil's blades outperformed the factory margins by such a large margin that comparison would'nt be relative to the general sisal endurance cutting jim did in his extenvive testing.
 
DennisStrickland said:
grouping of alloys is a relatively fresh concept. as we get into the more involved steels it's somewhat difficult to lump certain alloys into groups. according to jim's & some of knarfengs sisal rope endurance cutting i find grouping a little difficult to achive. jim & frank both concurred that m4 shaded zdp by a large margin. also jim went on to extensively wring out m390. m390 shaded m4 by a decent margin. in my own idea of catagories the results seen to run something like this:
aus 8, vg10, 1095, ---n690, s30, & d2--zdp alone--m4 alone-- & m390 alone. s90 & 110v neck & neck. this are relative & do'nt reflect the tweaked goodies by some japanese makers & just about any of the knives heattreated by phil wilson. sniper bladeworks has turned out 1095 with a hamon that cuts up there with s90. crusader forge s30 triple forged will probably run neck & neck with zdp. grouping of alloys is a shaky concept since same alloys by different makers will show major performance variances. ankersons sisal tests do give a decent idea of performance since he used all knives as made by mainstream companies. however as a sidenote he mentioned these same steels as turned out by wilson were not desiginated since phil's blades outperformed the factory margins by such a large margin that comparison would'nt be relative to the general sisal endurance cutting jim did in his extenvive testing.
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Thanks for the explanation. :)
 
ZDP-189 is a good steel and while it will hold an edge well it's not quite in the same league as steels like S90V, M4, S110V, 10V, S125V, and M390. It's just a click below these High end Super Steels in edge retention no matter how you test it.

While it can be run up to 67 RC, most production blades will be 65 RC or below because the steel really isn't that tough and it will chip out if pushed. Also remember that if ZDP-189 is pushed to 67 RC the other steels can be pushed to optimal hardness also so the percentages will stay the same performance wise. ;)

I did a lot of cutting with ZDP @ 65 RC on different materials and edge profiles and it seems happiest at 30 Degrees inclusive when doing hard cutting for long periods of time. Edge damage was at a minimum in extended cutting.

For a standard EDC type use it would be hard to see the difference really, but start testing the steels directly against each other pushing them to the limits and the differences do start to show up.
 
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Why does Sal Glesser have it ranking even with S90V on the CATRA test results? Both of which are at the top of the pile of results he has mentioned.
 
FlaMtnBkr said:
Why does Sal Glesser have it ranking even with S90V on the CATRA test results? Both of which are at the top of the pile of results he has mentioned.
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You would have to ask him, I am not Sal Glesser nor do I work for Spyderco. ;)
 
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Ankerson said:
You would have to ask him. ;)
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??? What is asking him going to accomplish? He already gave test results using a machine that reduces variables and reduces human error and bias. I was asking you why you think there is a discrepancy. Even Vasilli (nozh2002) lists ZDP at the top. Knarfeng measured visible edge deformation which is interesting but I'm not sure it correlates with edge retention.
 
FlaMtnBkr said:
??? What is asking him going to accomplish? He already gave test results using a machine that reduces variables and reduces human error and bias. I was asking you why you think there is a discrepancy. Even Vasilli (nozh2002) lists ZDP at the top. Knarfeng measured visible edge deformation which is interesting but I'm not sure it correlates with edge retention.
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Like I said, you will have to ask him about it. ;)

I will not talk about anybodies testing methods or their results in anyway, my results are how they turned out for me using my method.
 
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at this stage i think it's pertinent to mention we can use "what if" "what about"& " how about" in queries all we wish. these conjectures are useless since jim & frank posted their definitve results as to the results obtained. they offered no truisms or set in stone conclusions . the men simply showed the results obtained by their methods on 3/8 ths & 5/8ths sisal. i believe a lot of free performance was given us w/o any effort of our own. frankly i grow weary of all the questions such as :
"
well how long would zdp cut against d2 in frozen tapioka"
" would M390 cutcut zdp in anartica"
"
if raining would results be the same"
"if s30 was rockwell 80 would it still have less abrasion than zdp at 60 rockwell"
mods plese notice i did'nt launch a personal attack on any member.
dennis
 
What criteria are you using to "grade" these steels? Edge-holding? My list would be:

420, 420J

440a, 425m, 420hc, 12c27, Aus6

440b, Aus8, 8Cr13Mov, 9Cr18Mo

gin-1, ats-55, Aus10, 440c, CTS-BD-1

ats-34, 154cm, CPM-S60V, VG-10

bg-42, CPM-S30V, CPM-154, CPM-S35VN, D2

CPM-M4, CPM-S90V, ZDP-189, CTS-XHP


I added the steels I'm experienced with but left alone those I never used. The only one I can't classify is H-1. The PE and SE are so far apart in performance that I can't place it. I added 2 more "steps" in the chart.
 
DennisStrickland said:
at this stage i think it's pertinent to mention we can use "what if" "what about"& " how about" in queries all we wish. these conjectures are useless since jim & frank posted their definitve results as to the results obtained. they offered no truisms or set in stone conclusions . the men simply showed the results obtained by their methods on 3/8 ths & 5/8ths sisal. i believe a lot of free performance was given us w/o any effort of our own. frankly i grow weary of all the questions such as :
"
well how long would zdp cut against d2 in frozen tapioka"
" would M390 cutcut zdp in anartica"
"
if raining would results be the same"
"if s30 was rockwell 80 would it still have less abrasion than zdp at 60 rockwell"
mods plese notice i did'nt launch a personal attack on any member.
dennis
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As for things like heat treat and grind angles we should assume "normal" production knives.
 
The CATRA results generally come from testing samples made by the same company, ground to the same dimensions, and done on a machine which will provide the same cutting profile on the same media. Kinda like the magazine article I posted excerpts from. Bob Dozier ground similar test mules from a variety of CPM steels and heat treated them all himself.

I was told of two results for one alloy tested on CATRA, but the sample blades provided from two different companies. One outcut the other by 66%, and the steel only comes from one foundry.

What Spyderco's CATRA testing showed was that their S90V & ZDP-189 blade samples, made to their specs, performed the same on CATRA testing. Ankerson's testing showed that the S90V and ZDP-189 blades he sharpened and tested did not perform the same on manila rope cut in a certain fashion. Neither test is absolutely conclusive nor particularly useful in deciding between the two alloys-they're both good. They do show that the steels outcut AUS8 or 420HC. I personally feel that industry standard tests for wear resistance, impact resistance, hardness, corrosion resistance, and carbide fraction data tell us pretty much the same thing.
 
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brets-ftw said:
i personally would put it in the aus 8 section but im curious as to why if its at that same quality level of steel, why more companies arent using it, so far all ive seen is spyderco and possibly benchmade.
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I do not recall ever seeing a Benchmade knife in ZDP-189, doesn't mean it's never happened. I think I would have recalled seeing it.
A.G. Russell has the Acies in ZDP, Spyderco uses it in various models, Kershaw has used it in the various Ken Onion designs.

As far as why more companies aren't using it, that could be many things: Cost, availability, machineability, etc. Some companies may just not want to use it. The question of whether it's the same, better, worse, etc is subjective. Just like any steel used in cutlery the heat treat is what make it what it is.
 
RevDevil said:
The question of whether it's the same, better, worse, etc is subjective. Just like any steel used in cutlery the heat treat is what make it what it is.
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That's true for the most part, but no amount of magic HT and tempering will turn 440A into S90V.

But yes when the performance levels are close then Proper HT and tempering comes into play depending on the steels and hardness levels. 2 points on the hardness scale can change performance dramatically to the point it would be like testing 2 completely different steels. Some steels can and do vary like 5 points on the hardness scale depending on the the intended use of the knife and maker etc, talk about differences in performance, that would be worlds apart.

That can also be the difference in production knives and customs, there can be a night and day difference in performance between 2 knives in the same steel, differences of well over 100% aren't unrealistic.

Then throw in blade geometry, sharpness, edge finish, thickness behind the edge and edge geometry, blade coatings and things can really get complicated in a real hurry.

There are a lot of variables to think about in testing that's why I didn't test to rank the steels in order from best to last. Instead it put them into categories of like performance based on my test results, the steels in each category had exactly the same number of cuts compared to the other steels in the same category.

I am not taking anything away from the production knife Manufacturers here at all, they do an excellent job in giving us knives at great prices. :)

I will add that Spyderco IMO makes the best cutting blades production wise out here right now, they are optimized for cutting as well as any production knives can be and it really shows. That's also the reason I try and use their blades in my testing as much as I can.
 
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I have two ZDP-189's in the Delica 4 and the Stretch. I really enjoy these two

but I don't abuse them.
 
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