ZT 0200 Hard to Sharpen?

Sulaco

Sulaco

Gold Member
Joined
Nov 15, 2003
Messages
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I just got a 0200 blem in a recent trade and love it. I took it apart and cleaned it up well and since it came pretty dull, decided to sharpen it with my SharpMaker. Using the Sharpie technique, I found out only one bevel was close to 20 degrees. The other was more obtuse. I've spent the last two days using different grits of sandpaper taped to my SharpMaker rods, my coarse DMT benchstone, and of course the Sharpmaker itself and for the life of me, can't get this thing sharper than a butterknife.

I've read that 154CM can be tough to sharpen, but I have a BM w/ a 154CM blade and it takes a razor edge with just a few swipes once I got the bevels right (years ago).

Is it possible since this is a blem, it was overly hardened?

Anyone have any ideas why I am having such trouble getting it sharp? It doesn't seem as though I've removed much metal which makes me think it's just really hard, but I guess I could be doing something wrong? All of my other knives of various steel take real nice, shaving sharp edges.
 
In my experience, ZT knives' edges are a good bit greater than 40º inclusive. If you haven't gotten that angle down to 40º, you're not going to get the edge sharp with a Sharpmaker. You will definitely need something like a medium grit sandpaper or the diamond rods to get the job done. Most likely you're just not being patient enough. Reprofile with medium grit paper until you have a sharp edge--until you are absolutely certain that you are removing metal from the edge (e.g. verify with Sharpie). Sometimes you may think you're removing metal at the edge, but when you look at it under a microscope, there is still a sliver of black from the Sharpie remaining. You can purchase one of those cheap little "microscopes" from Radio Shack for around $10. Or use a decent magnifier under a lamp. It's crucial that you know you are removing metal at the edge on both sides before graduating to the next grit or moving to the Sharpmakers stones because if you're not every subsequent step is futile.
 
Thanks for the info Bryan. I used the coarsest grit sandpaper I have (320 I believe it is) and sharpened with it until there was no marking left from the Sharpie. I did this several times actually, to no avail. I suppose I could try again.
 
Don't think of your goal as wanting to sharpen "until there [is] no marking left from the Sharpie". The goal should be to reach a state where you can color the edge black with the marker and then verify that metal is being removed from the very edge after only a couple of strokes down the Sharpmaker rods. Keep in mind that you may not be able to see out to the very edge with your naked eye, which is where a nice magnifier can really help. Once you believe you are hitting the edge from both sides, you next should verify that the edge is now much sharper than when you began (using your fingertips, slicing paper, etc). And of course, you need to make sure you've obtained this sharpness (and metal removal out to the extremities) up and down the entire edge. Only once this has been done should you graduate to the next grit up (or the Spyderco medium stone). You may find this a bit easier with a coarser grit. I reprofile with 150, then move to 220, then move to the medium Spyderco stone edge, then medium flat, then fine edge, then fine flat, then strop on newpaper. I'm no expert, but I can get the knife pretty sharp.
 
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Okay, that makes more sense then. I did attempt to color just the edge and when using the coarse SharpMaker stones, it still took forever to even eventually see some of the color being removed. This is what led me to believe that maybe the steel was over-hardened. I suppose thinking back, it did take quite a while to get my BM Mini-Grip reprofiled. I'll work on it again tomorrow.

Thanks!
 
For my ZT0200s (154CM) and Spec Bumps (S30V), I have needed to reprofile down to 30 deg for the back bevel and then microbevel at 40 deg and strop. You lose very little blade material if you do it slowly. After that, touch ups are done easily and quickly.
 
Blems are cosmetic in nature only. There should be nothing functionally wrong with the knife. As to sharpening, adnj has the right idea.
 
Well, I have now spent a ridiculous amount of time attempting to re-profile this 0200 and once I go from sandpapers to the coarse stones on my SharpMaker, the edge just goes dull. I have to say, I can get my other knives of various steels (some including 154CM, 1095, D2, etc.) stupid sharp. I just can't seem to get this 0200 to take an edge. I am afraid at this point that if I continue, I will just be removing steel.

Any other ideas?
 
Sulaco said:
I just got a 0200 blem in a recent trade and love it. I took it apart and cleaned it up well and since it came pretty dull, decided to sharpen it with my SharpMaker. Using the Sharpie technique, I found out only one bevel was close to 20 degrees. The other was more obtuse. I've spent the last two days using different grits of sandpaper taped to my SharpMaker rods, my coarse DMT benchstone, and of course the Sharpmaker itself and for the life of me, can't get this thing sharper than a butterknife.

I've read that 154CM can be tough to sharpen, but I have a BM w/ a 154CM blade and it takes a razor edge with just a few swipes once I got the bevels right (years ago).

Is it possible since this is a blem, it was overly hardened?

Anyone have any ideas why I am having such trouble getting it sharp? It doesn't seem as though I've removed much metal which makes me think it's just really hard, but I guess I could be doing something wrong? All of my other knives of various steel take real nice, shaving sharp edges.
Click to expand...

You would do better using the diamond rods on the sharpmaker. That is the only way you will be able to reprofile any knife with that kind of edge geometry, otherwise you will literally spends hours upon hours and build up frustration. That is the reason you are having a hard time. The other aspect is that you are using the wrong tool for the job. A sharpmaker can keep an already sharpened knife sharpo, but takes a LONG time to reprofile.

154CM is pretty easy to sharpen, probably comperable to well treated VG-10. I seriously doubt that your knife was overhardnened, usually when that happens the edge will chip out and leave some microserrations where you tried to cut. The "blem" has more to do with a cosmetic issue on the knife itself, like paint did not cover the entire blade, etc. in most cases they are pretty hard to notice. I doubt that KAI would ever knowingly sell a knife with a poor performing blade. I recfall vaguely that something went wrong with the S60V Blurs (I think), and they were not all released to the public for sale. This is why I would doubt they let something mechanically unsound out of their doors. Send the knife to RichardJ, he can sharpen it for you and create the proper bevel so the Sharpmaker can be effective.
 
There is nothing that I know of more coarse than a coarse and extra-coarse DMT benchstone. I have both and have been using both. I have also been using coarse sandpaper. You even quoted my original reply and then told me I am using the wrong tools for the job. What, might I ask, would be the right tools for the job?

And as for micro-chipping, when I sharpen using the coarse sandpaper, I see multiple micro-chips down the entire length of the edge. I've never seen this happen before but they do smooth out as I go with less coarse abrasives. However, once I get to those less coarse abrasives, the edge goes dull.

RevDevil said:
You would do better using the diamond rods on the sharpmaker. That is the only way you will be able to reprofile any knife with that kind of edge geometry, otherwise you will literally spends hours upon hours and build up frustration. That is the reason you are having a hard time. The other aspect is that you are using the wrong tool for the job. A sharpmaker can keep an already sharpened knife sharpo, but takes a LONG time to reprofile.

154CM is pretty easy to sharpen, probably comperable to well treated VG-10. I seriously doubt that your knife was overhardnened, usually when that happens the edge will chip out and leave some microserrations where you tried to cut. The "blem" has more to do with a cosmetic issue on the knife itself, like paint did not cover the entire blade, etc. in most cases they are pretty hard to notice. I doubt that KAI would ever knowingly sell a knife with a poor performing blade. I recfall vaguely that something went wrong with the S60V Blurs (I think), and they were not all released to the public for sale. This is why I would doubt they let something mechanically unsound out of their doors. Send the knife to RichardJ, he can sharpen it for you and create the proper bevel so the Sharpmaker can be effective.
Click to expand...
 
Sulaco said:
Well, I have now spent a ridiculous amount of time attempting to re-profile this 0200 and once I go from sandpapers to the coarse stones on my SharpMaker, the edge just goes dull. I have to say, I can get my other knives of various steels (some including 154CM, 1095, D2, etc.) stupid sharp. I just can't seem to get this 0200 to take an edge. I am afraid at this point that if I continue, I will just be removing steel.

Any other ideas?
Click to expand...

So you verified that your edge is nice and sharp (albeit toothy) at the final sandpaper grit before progressing to the Spyderco stones? And then after the first stone your edge is going dull?
 
Diamonds will work faster than any "extra coarse" stone ever would. Diamonds are the hardest substance on Earth, this includes 154CM. You can reprofile by hand of course using a 120 grit stone, even a 220 grit stone, but it will take a little longer than it would if you used diamonds. The other thing, if you are not hitting the angle with consistency, you will end up eating away all kinds of metal, insteadof creating an actual burr that indicates you are working the cutting edge. You need that to develop. What you are seeing is not necessarily micro chipping, I suspect it is grind lines from the abrasive media you are using.

Sulaco said:
There is nothing that I know of more coarse than a coarse and extra-coarse DMT benchstone. I have both and have been using both. I have also been using coarse sandpaper. You even quoted my original reply and then told me I am using the wrong tools for the job. What, might I ask, would be the right tools for the job?

And as for micro-chipping, when I sharpen using the coarse sandpaper, I see multiple micro-chips down the entire length of the edge. I've never seen this happen before but they do smooth out as I go with less coarse abrasives. However, once I get to those less coarse abrasives, the edge goes dull.
Click to expand...
 
You should seriously pay attention. DMT benchstones are "diamond" stones, okay? And further more, I put the stones against my SharpMaker rods, holding them at an EXACT 20 degree angle. I adhere the sandpaper to the rods.

This is NOT an issue about holding proper angles or using anything less than properly abrasive materials.

RevDevil said:
Diamonds will work faster than any "extra coarse" stone ever would. Diamonds are the hardest substance on Earth, this includes 154CM. You can reprofile by hand of course using a 120 grit stone, even a 220 grit stone, but it will take a little longer than it would if you used diamonds. The other thing, if you are not hitting the angle with consistency, you will end up eating away all kinds of metal, insteadof creating an actual burr that indicates you are working the cutting edge. You need that to develop. What you are seeing is not necessarily micro chipping, I suspect it is grind lines from the abrasive media you are using.
Click to expand...
 
Yes, exactly right. The edge is nice and sharp, very toothy at the final sandpaper grit before going to the Spyderco stones. And yes, as soon as I start using the Spyderco stones (or any other stones for that matter, I've tried several), the edge becomes progressively more dull the more I use them.

When I initially profiled to 20 degrees using 150 or 220 grit (I did find some 150 grit in the shed), the edge looked seriously jagged to me. I've re-profiled a handful of blades and never seen one this jagged. Toothy, yet. But not jagged. Is this normal?

I don't know a ton about this stuff, but I'm not a moron and honestly, to me it really just seems like this steel is overly hardened. I know it's hard to believe, but from my perspective, it's just about the only thing that makes sense.

I had a particular Benchmade folder with a 154CM blade some years back and anytime I used it, the edge would chip. I emailed and BM had me send it in. They replaced the blade with a note saying the original was found to be brittle. I just assumed this was over-hardening and so maybe that's also why I have in the back of my head that this might be the same issue?

Bryan J said:
So you verified that your edge is nice and sharp (albeit toothy) at the final sandpaper grit before progressing to the Spyderco stones? And then after the first stone your edge is going dull?
Click to expand...
 
Sulaco said:
Yes, exactly right. The edge is nice and sharp, very toothy at the final sandpaper grit before going to the Spyderco stones. And yes, as soon as I start using the Spyderco stones (or any other stones for that matter, I've tried several), the edge becomes progressively more dull the more I use them.

When I initially profiled to 20 degrees using 150 or 220 grit (I did find some 150 grit in the shed), the edge looked seriously jagged to me. I've re-profiled a handful of blades and never seen one this jagged. Toothy, yet. But not jagged. Is this normal?

I don't know a ton about this stuff, but I'm not a moron and honestly, to me it really just seems like this steel is overly hardened. I know it's hard to believe, but from my perspective, it's just about the only thing that makes sense.

I had a particular Benchmade folder with a 154CM blade some years back and anytime I used it, the edge would chip. I emailed and BM had me send it in. They replaced the blade with a note saying the original was found to be brittle. I just assumed this was over-hardening and so maybe that's also why I have in the back of my head that this might be the same issue?
Click to expand...

The "microchipping" you observe is normal in my experience when using something as course as 150 grit sandpaper. I observe this with both 154CM and S30V. I don't really believe the metal is actually chipping, it's just extreme toothiness due to the coarseness of the grit. As I progress through higher grits it eventually smooths out and by the time I get to the Sharpmaker fine stone I've got a nice smooth edge.
 
Sulaco said:
You should seriously pay attention. DMT benchstones are "diamond" stones, okay? And further more, I put the stones against my SharpMaker rods, holding them at an EXACT 20 degree angle. I adhere the sandpaper to the rods.

This is NOT an issue about holding proper angles or using anything less than properly abrasive materials.
Click to expand...

Simmer down son, you are the one that asked for help, okay? No need to get all hormonal. Apparently the angles are NOT exactly the same. This is what I was refering to, but you seem to know all about it then, best of luck, cheer up.
 
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RevDevil said:
Simmer down son, you are the one that asked for help, okay? No need to get all hormonal. Apparently the angles are NOT exactly the same. This is what I was refering to, but you seem to know all about it then, best of luck, cheer up.
Click to expand...

Yes, I asked for help. But you obviously were not reading my posts and instead were just assuming you knew what I was doing or not doing as it were. And so, I had to keep correcting you which was not doing any good resolving the issue I asked for help with. I appreciate that you want to add input, but in the future, please read posts so your responses are relevant.
 
Just to encourage you. :D

zt200andcolt1.jpg
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