Tactical Hawk Comparison Old vs New

rmjtac said:
Actually the Talon and Kestrel are designed primarily for breaching as well. They do work better on wood than the Shrike because of different blade geometry. The Srike is newer than the Talon and Kestrel and better for some situations, like anything involving electricity because of the insulated handle. That being said, we have never heard of a Talon or Kestrel breaking or failing in the field, even though we know of several extremely heavy duty breaching jobs they have gone through. Such as, cutting a rocket pod off of a downed MIG fighter jet.
The Jenny Wren is our only tomahawk not created with breaching as it's main focus. It was designed for a Marine group primarily for CQC with light breaching capabilities.
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Now that’s just beautiful, I can really see how this axe could be useful in a CQC situation. Grate work on it RMJ. Ryan were did the idea for the small kestrel hawk come from? Was it on the same lines as the Jenny Warren?

I ask, because I do some executive protection jobs down here whit some very high risk clients, and at times i carry a small hawk under my jacket or openly on my vest depending on the area of operation and the if we are going military overt on the job. I’m just curios if someone, some were ells carries a small axe in the same manner. The Kestrel and Jenny Warren look like they were made for this.

 
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I believe that this axe is actually smaller than the Kestrel. The oal length is 11 1/2'' ,for the Jenny Warren. The Kestrel is 13''. The weight of the Jenny Warren is 14 oz.. The Kestrel is 25 oz.. Very compact and fast CQC axe. By the way. The head is made of S-7 . An extremely shock resistant tool steel. In fact, they use this steel for jackhammer bits and "cold"chisels.
 
rmjtac:

If I may ask, why don't the handles on your hawk go all the way up to the head?

I really like the Shrike, but the inability to choke all the way up on it really kind of kills it.
Is there an option to have the handle go all the way?
 
Cpl Punishment said:
rmjtac:

If I may ask, why don't the handles on your hawk go all the way up to the head?

I really like the Shrike, but the inability to choke all the way up on it really kind of kills it.
Is there an option to have the handle go all the way?
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That was another question I was going to ask.
 
Cpl Punishment said:
rmjtac:

If I may ask, why don't the handles on your hawk go all the way up to the head?

I really like the Shrike, but the inability to choke all the way up on it really kind of kills it.
Is there an option to have the handle go all the way?
Click to expand...

I'd be interested to know as well.

I assume it has much to do with the sharpened underside of the bit, which obviously could cut into your hand if held directly under the head. May also belie it's primary purpose as a breaching tool/window breaker.

If it were possible though, having a handle that allowed you to choke up all the way would convince me to open my wallet.
 
I don't think it would hurt its functionality as a breacher at all. There MAY be more risk because of the sharpened beard, but my Fort Turner Custom Iroquois has a sharpened beard and I haven't cut myself choking up on it yet. It offers an option for very close CQB in tight hallways and such.
 
@Edwood7, The Kestrel was our second tomahawk. It is simply a shorter version of the Eagle Talon. It was requested by an American serviceman working in the American embassy in Egypt. He told us that he could have firearms inside the embassy and in his car. He wanted something to get him from the embassy to his car that he could carry inside his suit coat.
@Cpl Punishment, the rubber section of the handle does not extend all the way to the head because it would take too much abuse in breaching situations, such as, raking and breaking glass, the steel neck is perfect for tasks like that. The neck is 3/8" thick and can be choked up on without a problem. You are just holding bare steel instead of rubber. Please bear in mind though that the Shrike is first and foremost a breaching tool. When you choke up on a tomahawk you loose the force multiplier and reach provided by the handle. In other words, if you are choking up all the time you may as well be using a knife because you are not using the advantages a tomahawk gives you. Using the full length of the hawk allows you to keep more distance between yourself and your opponent. Plus, it allows you to use the spike to punch straight through body armor, remember, our tomahawks are designed to pierce a kevlar helmet (except Jenny Wren).
 
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@Moving Target, the sharpened part of the beard does not extend all of the way to the handle, there is a finger notch to prevent cutting yourself.
 
Edwood, from what you described earlier, the Jenny Wren would be better suited to your situation than the Kestrel, unless you anticipate needing to go through a helmet. The Jenny Wren will go through soft armor.

JennyWren_vs_Dyneema_3A_500x414.jpg
 
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RMJ: thanks.

I really don't foresee choking up a lot on these, considering their use, but one may well be engaged very close, where one can't swing, but sliding your hand up under the head, you can hook the carotid/jugular with the beard, shove the spike through an eye socket, etc. But since most guys in hostile territory wear gloves,not having it wrapped is probably not an issue, and I see your point about raking glass.

Thanks for the info.

Now, to save my pennies. . .
 
I am curious. All the discussion so far on the Sayoc Winkler R&D hawk seems to be centred on the effectiveness of the front spiked version. How effective is the non-spike version of the Sayoc Winkler R&D hawk in CQC. Would it have any advantages over the front spiked version?
 
rmjtac said:
Actually the Talon and Kestrel are designed primarily for breaching as well. They do work better on wood than the Shrike because of different blade geometry. The Srike is newer than the Talon and Kestrel and better for some situations, like anything involving electricity because of the insulated handle. That being said, we have never heard of a Talon or Kestrel breaking or failing in the field, even though we know of several extremely heavy duty breaching jobs they have gone through. Such as, cutting a rocket pod off of a downed MIG fighter jet.
The Jenny Wren is our only tomahawk not created with breaching as it's main focus. It was designed for a Marine group primarily for CQC with light breaching capabilities.
Click to expand...

Oops, I stand corrected.
 
Cpl Punishment said:
rmjtac:

If I may ask, why don't the handles on your hawk go all the way up to the head?

I really like the Shrike, but the inability to choke all the way up on it really kind of kills it.
Is there an option to have the handle go all the way?
Click to expand...

Seems like some of the older handles did go all the way. May have been changed due to that area being used to rake and clear broken glass.
 
mistwalker said:
Seems like some of the older handles did go all the way. May have been changed due to that area being used to rake and clear broken glass.
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The original Kestrel handle scales went all the way to the head, we had to send out several replacements due to the micarta not being able to handle the abuse. Thus we changed the design and switched to G10.
 
I have had edged weapons training in a lot of stiles. But when using the axe I always go back to Dwight C. McLemores Fighting tomahawk books for my training. The basics are all in this book.

 
Cold Steel makes a WarHammer. It looks devastating. I know it aint a high-end weapon but I still want one. As for how effective a hammer can be, it depends on the user I would think, and how hard he could swing it. I am a large guy and I have NO DOUBT that I could stop someone with a common framing hammer no matter where I was hitting him. I think my Norseman blood just plain LOVES the 'Hammers...
 
Glenn Jones said:
I am curious. All the discussion so far on the Sayoc Winkler R&D hawk seems to be centred on the effectiveness of the front spiked version. How effective is the non-spike version of the Sayoc Winkler R&D hawk in CQC. Would it have any advantages over the front spiked version?
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Everything has it's pros and cons. I just got the front spike version of the Winkler Sayoc. The front spike is pretty thin, I think "high speed, low drag" when I look at it. Then I thawed a turkey breast out, hung it on a string and took some swings. The front spike pierces starts the penetration, that notch under the front spike acts like a gut hook in a way. A swing from the elbow cut through the entire ribcage, with little drag.

The front spike will be more fragile, but I think would cut with less drag on soft materials. If a person got it stuck, or hung up on gear, it could slow the movement, but not by much. It could even be more difficult to pull out of a hard target, but it's not a big spike, so not by much.

If you were going to chop wood, breach, or fight armored knights, then the non-front spike version would be better. In CQC, against modern enemies, I'd rather have the spike, and take a chance of breaking it off, it's there because it increases it's effectiveness.
Here's a top view of that front spike...

winklerhawk003.jpg
 
I made this for a customer a while back and he likes it. It was more for the medival re inactment croud but it still worked. Carbon steel head with (this one) flat hammer face and steel inserts for the strike regions of the handle. He wanted a hammer swagger stick. (shrug)



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I like hawks for work and for fighting. It has a variety of uses that aren't obvious at first glance. When you understand how they work they can be quite useful.

CQB....


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Edwood7 said:
The small one I take when working plain clothes or on executive protection jobs. I have a shoulder strap on it and carry it under my jacket.
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I have a stealth hawk on the way, partially for concealed carry, which shoulder strap do you have? I've been looking for something like that. Do you maybe have a picture of you wearing it with the axe?

Cheers.

- Senserazer
 
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