“Curriculum Based” Drills No.1-101

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Aug 1, 2002
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IMO, the American FMA dudes should come to the Philippines and train the way Thekuntawman described it. His description of how they train at his gym sounded just like the way we do it here in Manila. My teachers would make me do strikes 1 and 2 and footwork drills (both forward and reverse triangles, and of course the trademark Pekiti Tirsia sidestepping) for hours before showing me the next thing. They also trained with Kali Ilustrisimo and De Campo 1-2-3 Orehinal escrima, so they are quite insistent that early on (after a few weeks) their students get exposed to live stick sparring with no body armor, just the headgear and the hand protection.

Do American FMA'ers even get calluses from 300 reps of air or tire strikes with their sticks? My teachers once told a friend of mine who insisted on doing tire strikes with gloves to cut the nonsense and get used to it. He quit, because he said he didn't want to SPOIL his hands! Hahaha!:rolleyes:
 
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John,

Just thought maybe I could clear some things up.

To judge the effectiveness of a systems training methods, by seeing two low level students doing a few drills, is not sound investigation. I know many people in your organization, you certainly don't want that done. Of course, I never would do that.

As far as various responses go, in the Sayoc Kali Methodology:

Reactionary: A response of the body to physical injury, a physiological response.

Reflexive: A response given with no conscience thought, and in response to the subconscience perception of danger.

Conditioned: A train response to a given attack

Correct: A trained response which is the least likely to result injury to yourself.

Now of course we want our reflexive response to be correct. But before someone is properly trained, it rarely is correct. So we try to install correct response against given stimulus, and install it to such a degree that it becomes reflexive.

Conditioned response, is easiest to understand if it is thought of in this way. Take all the responses you can think to train against a given attack,the ones you train are Conditioned. Pick the one you think has the best chance of working with the best results, you will then have Correct response.

As far as training with intensity and reality.

Once you learn the correct responses through the transition drills, we increase the intensity of the drills and than break up the order of the movements within each 10 count drill so we are free flowing within that drill. And then we do the same for all drills, free flowing within the 100 count drill. The next step is total free flow, feeder on receiver, while we force the receiver to also become a feeder, in other words both men become very offensive and try and control the flow, this is usually when more blades are introduced, and when we get the first aid kits out, (preparing for our suture and medical management lessons). What you saw on the site is just the very beginning stages of this evolution.

And of course this is only one method of training in Sayoc Kali, there are many others.

Thanks for your interest.
Gumagalang,
Tom
 
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Tom,

Thanks for your input on Methodology / Terminology. However, the last post by Rafael DID clear up some confusion and that is why I chose to omit any further discussion.

You wrote:>To judge the effectiveness of a systems training methods, by seeing two low level students doing a few drills, is not sound investigation.

First, I am aware that Sayoc Kali like many other systems (including Bakbakan) have an assortment of training methods. My criticism was directed ONLY to the transition drills(1-5) that I saw and NOTHING else.

Second, I was NOT basing it on the performance of "two low level students" as you put it. I know Nick personally and realize that there are many Sayoc players ranked higher. I merely viewed my points on the "execution of the material presented".

If you read my threads, I've never based my thoughts through a particular individual, instructor, organization or style. It would be a mute point and be considered a direct attack on them.

I made no investigation, I critiqued one drill

>I know many people in your organization, you certainly don't want that done. Of course, I never would do that.

So you know some people be it Members, students or fly-by-nighters...who cares. I won't even humor the issue of who you know because your criticism, whatever it is...is with them!

Now, on the otherhand, a sarcastic tone as conveyed in the above is telling me that unlike your fellow Brothers...YOU have taken this communication to Heart!

Let's not turn my original post into the "John G. Jacobo from Bakbakan vs. Sayoc Kali Group or Bakbakan vs Sayoc". From the beginning, it was never directed to any individual or group.

John
 
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271
John,

If you mean that by learning how to feed a knife one learns what the attacker is intending then yes that is part of Sayoc Kali as it is in all blade arts I believe.

On vital areas- I disagree- you can collapse the lung from the back or side as easily as from the front. You can get to the Perineum, kidney and femorals from the sides or the back. You can do wet and dry takeouts from any angle.

The only vital you may miss in the back are the common illiacs.
As per thrusts- one can cut/sever with a thrust as much as slash it.
And yes, one can hack a thrust. Usually when the person thrusting is trying to punch or use the blade like a stick or fist.

I appreciate the constructive criticism , but again you are criticizing something you saw about the size of a postcard that had two people doing a drill. I feel that best way to criticize it is to actually do the drills. That is why you probably have never heard anyone whose *done* the drills criticize them publicly.

We know, because by the third move of transition drill one they already realised how much more of the blade they need to cover. There is not much power needed (in the way you describe it- visually) with a blade that you need to see it exaggerated on film.
If one were doing an action film that is understandable. But anything those two did can harm someone if a live blade were used.

best,
--Rafael--
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Joined
Oct 16, 1998
Messages
2,395
Originally posted by Brandon96
...Do American FMA'ers even get calluses from 300 reps of air or tire strikes with their sticks? My teachers once told a friend of mine who insisted on doing tire strikes with gloves to cut the nonsense and get used to it. He quit, because he said he didn't want to SPOIL his hands! Hahaha!:rolleyes:

No, we American eskrimadors are all weak, stupid blow-hards. We would be better off if we didn't train at all. Thanks for the insight. :rolleyes:
 
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John,

--First, I am aware that Sayoc Kali like many other systems (including Bakbakan) have an assortment of training methods. My criticism was directed ONLY to the transition drills(1-5) that I saw and NOTHING else.--

If you read my last post, it was explained that, the drills you saw were done, at an early evolution in the training methodology, at this point they are very much, just drills, and therefore not meant to train all aspects of a combat situation at the same time. They do progress to a free flow which is as close to combat as sparring.

--Second, I was NOT basing it on the performance of "two low level students" as you put it. I know Nick personally and realize that there are many Sayoc players ranked higher. I merely viewed my points on the "execution of the material presented". --

Yes, the material was what was misunderstood.

--If you read my threads, I've never based my thoughts through a particular individual, instructor, organization or style. It would be a mute point and be considered a direct attack on them.--

Wrong, when you make a public critique the way you did, with no real investigation it is an attack against that style. You did no investigation other than look at that video and began to judge. Why not ask some questions of others that might know?

--I made no investigation, I critiqued one drill --

Yes critique with no investigation...well done

--So you know some people be it Members, students or fly-by-nighters...who cares. I won't even humor the issue of who you know because your criticism, whatever it is...is with them! --

Rey, is really the only one I know well.

--Now, on the otherhand, a sarcastic tone as conveyed in the above is telling me that unlike your fellow Brothers...YOU have taken this communication to Heart! --

Of course I've taken it to heart, why not.........You are publicly criticizing Sayoc Kali..... wrongly, with no real knowledge of the system. It doesn't seem like you really want to understand what we do, but would rather attack for some unknown reason. Yes, I've taken it to heart, John G.
 
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Aug 15, 2002
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John J,

Let me see if I can summarize what I've leaned from you in this string:

1. You claim to have no interest in debate, yet all you do is debate;

2. You write with sarcasm yet you recoil in offense when someone responds with sarcasm;

3. You'll quote someone and then remark that you will "refrain from comment", which of course is a comment in itself, oh and by-the-way, is quite sarcastic;

4. You critique a set of moves that you see on the internet without considering that such a superficial viewing is unlikely to capture the depths of technique contained therein and you expect people to take you seriously;

So you see, regardless of the paucity of your commentary I'm proud to say I managed to learn a few things. However, despite the volume of the finely-crafted and well-researched insight you offer, one question remains to plague me.

How does this type of snide, self-important commentary disguised as "constructive criticism" work in social situations? Make a lot of friends?

Sepulcre
 
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133
Originally posted by Brandon96
My teachers once told a friend of mine who insisted on doing tire strikes with gloves to cut the nonsense and get used to it.

WOW !!!
 
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May 3, 2002
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I have been following this thread for the past few days. The input by John J, Sun Helmet, Liveblade and thekuntawman(sp?) have made it very informative and interesting. I do sense, however, that it is becoming "Sayoc vs. the rest of FMA" since many of the comments/messages in past threads have been critical of the Sayoc system. This one is no different. The tone and line of questioning of some of the posts are a clear attempt to discredit or criticize the Sayoc system. Instead of criticize, do as many of the old Filipino masters have done, learn from each other to further develop FMA.

I am talking from the standpoint of a Filipino who is proud that much attention is being given to FMA worldwide. There is a common adage that Filipinos are like crabs in the barrel, always climbing and stepping over each other to get the top. Let's not carry that over to the FMA community.

Just my $0.02....

Lcf2727
 
Joined
Nov 18, 1999
Messages
74
Tom,

Take it as you wish; this forum has always been for discussion, comparison, history, advice, advertising and open to public criticism. If you look back at many of the past threads, you are sure to find some sort of criticism.

I think the problem is that many are not accustomed to seeing such criticism expressed openly. My comments are not to find fault but to seek reasoning. If you notice, I made no strong objections as an indication of debate. Rather, I continued to maintain my correspondence with further reason.

Nothing is written in stone, even the words or advice of the Masters. As the Martial Arts evolve so does the practitioner. My growth in experience, knowledge and skill now affords the opportunity to challenge or question such words or advice. I don’t think there is anyone here who has not been skeptical at one time or another. I just choose to address them.

Everyone who participated gave some valuable information for all to benefit from. This thread has close to 800 views. Do you think if my comments were of pure objection or derogatory, it would receive that type of attention? The Members of this forum come from all levels of experience in various Arts too. I don’t think they are interested in it as a Soap Opera?

I greatly admire your Loyalty as I have the same. However, these discussions have no malicious intent. If the Moderator feels that I purposely initiated a “flame war” than he would have immediately closed the thread.

John
 
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Sepulcre (is that your real name? If not, come out from behind the shadows or screen for that matter).

WOW! First post and as a Sayoc player too. I'm glad you benefit from your training as it should be nothing more than beneficial. However, the sole purpose of this thread was far from "self-importance". Read back carefully and don't just jump on the Band Wagon.

>Make a lot of friends?

You don't know me and I don't know you (or maybe I do) so don't make this a personal thing.

John
 
Joined
Nov 28, 1999
Messages
235
if the philippine-style fighters were all "kumbaya" (not a tagalog word) and lovey dovey to each other, we would not have the effective fighitng styles we have today. it is because each creator of each style thinks he is better than the next guy, and he is not afraid to challenge somebody esles idea, that fighters of arnis and eskrima learned to put there money where the mouth is.

this kind of debate is good for the art, because it causes the crap-talkers and phoneys, to keep there mouths shut, and only the ones who can fight (or at least they think they can fight) do all the bragging. if you looked at all the well-known "masters" of the fighting arts, they all claim to be better fighters than the rest, and they all say they have the most effective fighting styles. this is not really arrogance, it is the confidence of a man who deserved the respect he has. it is our custom, to puff out our chest, because we are fighters, not women. leave all the peaceful, weak stuff to the monks.

as a martial arts teacher, you have to make sure your students believe in what they are doing if they will have the courage to face enemies with a weapon. you cant do this by saying, "oh, my system is _okay," if you dont feel like you can whip the next guy, you shouldnt be a teacher of the art. you are suppose to be above average, almost like a superman. and if you dont, you still have more training to do.

now about getting your feelings hurt, if you feel you are the best, you should expect challenges and doubters to what you do. and you should welcome them. like the saying goes, the one at the top of the mountain should enjoy others trying to knock him off, or he shouldn't be there. i question the maturity of anyone you can convince that a style is a great fighting style without experiencing it (fighting against it) yourself. when more people say your style sucks, and you prove them wrong, then you have earned your respect the FILIPINO way. other than that, your respect is on paper only. (or computer).
 
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Jul 26, 2000
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271
John,

I don't know if Sepulcre has stated they are from Sayoc Kali. I don't see it at first glance.

For all we know they may be some outsider doing some instigating.

I believe any Sayoc Kali members will not shy away from stating who they are.

I can see why you would be offended and react strongly but unless this person stated who they are- they are not from Sayoc Kali.

I think what many from Sayoc see as unfounded criticism is what happens when you comment and welcome discussion. I don't see any flame war per se, just that they will take you to task for any comment they find undue or ill researched. Some more personally than others. Up to you whether you want to discuss it further or let it go.

Since Sayoc members KNOW what the transition drills are about , it is understandable when some members get irritated when someone keeps the dialogue going based solely on a web file they saw on the internet. They KNOW how aggressive the training is and while initial inquiry about it is welcome, you must agree it does get into pure speculation after the initial inquiry is answered and little progress is made. Beyond actually doing the drills there's nothing to be gained by critiquing them further.

As I said earlier, anything not real is still a drill. Any drill can be critiqued as non applicable. Beyond that is up to the practitioner.

So the next logical progression is when can you come to the Sayoc seminar at Nick Sacoulas' school as our guest? That way when you critique the transition drills it will be from one who has done them.

Kuntawman- I think you nailed the personality of Filipino mentality. It has been our strength and our weakness.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali
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271
On open criticism. I think Sayoc members are not used to seeing open criticism on the web since the moves are less visual but are practical. We're used to exchange on one to one basis. There hasn't been any open criticism on the web since those who come to our seminars or classes can feel the reality.

Ironically, this whole thread is all based on REALITY training discussed in a most unrealistic method possible ... the internet.
:)
--Rafael--
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Joined
Nov 18, 1999
Messages
74
Hi Again Rafael,

Thanks for the continued correspondence. You are correct, the issue of Sepulcre being Sayoc or not is irrelevant.

Please understand that my on-going dialogue is not based solely on this one video clip. Although the purpose of your drill might be unique to Sayoc, there are other styles including some Chinese Arts that bare a very strong resemblance to such drills. Some I've seen first hand while others were on videos. I have partaken in some of them too. Needless to say, the Sayoc approach may be the difference in it's effectiveness as well as the practitioners.

Regarding your invitation as a seminar guest, I will decline. However, I am open to meeting you and training together...one-on-one in friendship, with mutual respect and an open mind.

Please feel free to contact me at: [email protected]

Yours in the Arts,

John
 
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271
Hello John,

It's unfortunate you won't be joining us at the seminar. Since it was Nick and Rodney you isolated initially, I felt it would be the fairest way to experience what they were doing. Also, you agreed to train with Guro Chung sometime and I am sure he would be there as well. It would be the best way to meet all the principles in this thread in a friendly and family setting since our seminars are very personable.

Unfortunately as per private training or sharing, I would have to decline since I already have a schedule of training that covers that area . Every Sayoc Instructor has a specific role to play in the organization. Most importantly the Sayoc material is only open through the way we want to feed it to the public and it is organized in a specific manner. We do not share the drills even if we do crosstrain with other arts on a daily basis. I would've assisted you at the seminar however. Contacts to private instruction would've been available through a variety of Sayoc licensed instructors at the seminar. Any licensed Sayoc Kali instructor are recommended. We've found that this has lessened confusion, miscommunication and intertribe rivalries found in other systems. Much of what we do has been learned from others mistakes, not only in the way we train, but also the way we present the Sayoc material.

Nonetheless, the offer is still open to you (free seminar) and any member that you personally bring to the seminar will get a discount. No need to share any of your skills, but an opportunity to participate in a class setting in Sayoc Kali.

Gumagalang,
--Rafael--
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Sayoc Kali
 
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Nov 18, 1999
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74
Hi Rafael,

You seem to have a very organized setting and I respect that. It's nice to see that all of you are uniformed in the preservation and goals of Sayoc Kali.

Although I have corresponded with Jeff off the forum, there was no discussion about training. However, I did state that friends of mine were mutual friends of Pat Consing and we are hoping to get everyone together real soon.

I can assure you that I would never attend a seminar with the slightest intention of demonstrating any skills other than what is required of the material. I always offer my utmost respect as a student / participant only.

Thanks again for the invite, maybe I can get a rain check for another event down the road?

Yours in the Arts,

John
 
Joined
Nov 28, 1999
Messages
235
sinawali and drills like that can be good for strength even when you do it slow. my best friend for solo training is a tree which i can hit with a stick, or practice empty handed and feet, and he doesnt get hurt.

my classes do solo drills, but they are striking, attack combination and countering combinations, we do them full speed and power, going backward, forward and inside and outside stepping. we do them with little power when we practice face to face, and we do them with the opponent trying to "mess up the program", make his technique fail. sometimes i can take one or two combos, and do them for the whole class. this kind of training is good warm up for sparring.

i dont like face to face stick tapping, because they are too far from reality. when my boys go face to face, there is no prearranged, they spar or they are trying to hit the opponent. this also helps you get use to getting hit, developing your reflexes, and get timing for your countering methods.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2002
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135
Hi All,

Simple questions

What have callouses on the hands got to do with skill in self defence?
Hitting someone hard enough to hurt them isn't all that difficult and requires about an hour of training for a complete beginner to learn even empty handed. With a stick it is even easier. With a knife it is easier still. With a machete........

Sure it is great if you have put in alot of reps with your stick on inaminate objects.
This teaches you to keep hold of it when hitting hard and increases wrist strength. There are more efficient ways to increase wrist strength and more efficient ways to damage your joints.

If you chop at a person with a machete then you will find that there isn't alot of force required to cut them.

Has anyone here done any test cutting on animal corpses? I haven't but one of my friends has and he was amazed at just how easy it is to make a disabling cut. You don't need to whack it as hard as you can. In fact hitting too hard screws up cutting technique. A cut must be drawn as it impacts otherwise it will not do much.
Of course if you never actually pick up a machete then your edge alignment will never be right anyway...... (Flattened training sticks anyone?)

The best I have done is coke bottles. These cut ridiculously easily and edge alignment and proper drawing of the cut are far more important than how hard you hit.

Are we here to learn to defend ourselves or tap each other with sticks that weigh far less than the machete they are supposed to represent?

If you really are only training for stick work then perhaps you should examine the two handed method. A light blow using this method is going to hurt enough to end a fight. A bodyweight blow in the right place will kill.

What has compliant same weapon sparring between two combatants who are both ready with their weapons out got to do with self defence?

What has whacking each other with a short stick whilst moving over a perfectly smooth surface whilst wearing a tracksuit and armour that blocks all the sting from a blow got to do with self defence?

Has anyone ever heard of scenario training?
Does anyone train in low light conditions?
In cramped conditions?
With and against improvised weapons?

I do.

I really don't care what people are doing in the Phillipines.
(so shoot me)

We live in a different world to them. We face a different type of adversary under different circumstances.

We have access to modern studies on the adrenal stress response that were not available even 10 years ago. We now know that defences that rely on a modified flinch reflex are the only ones that are going to work in a surprise self defence situation or perhaps at all.

My system has adapted. Has yours?
The arts should move towards the future, not look at the past.

Respectfully to all
Stuart.
Floro Fighting Systems Kali Illustrisimo.
 
Joined
Jul 26, 2000
Messages
271
Some good point sStuart.

Yes, in Sayoc Kali we do a lot of scenario training and I completely agree with you on the matters of damaging the body with a blade as opposed to the stick etc. The body has tissue that opens up without much force and the angle of the blade is not compromised. Even blunt objects that aren't weapons per se have gone through flesh so deep that the wound cannot be sealed with sutures but gauzed up. Someone swinging a blade like a bat full force is less deadly IMO than someone who trains how to slash and thrust at vital targets. You can track the overcommited person much easier than someone who can switch to find the passable areas.

All anyone who doubts that little power is needed with a blade has to do is run a live blade edge on their torso or drop the point on their foot... the blade will do damage without much intention. With proper angling and targeting, it's a world of hurt.

--Rafael--
Sayoc Kali--
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