“Toughness, edge retention, corrosion resistance—pick two.” Is this still the case today?

XtianAus said:
Curious as to whose magnacut you've tested and were pleased with? I am looking forward to trying some magnacut but here of companies running it soft and getting average results 👎🏻
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I have a few knives from BGM knives, and few from Tactical Everyday Dad, one from The James Brand, and a few from Knife Standfards, All are in the 63 hrc range and perform very well.
 
jstn said:
I have a few knives from BGM knives, and few from Tactical Everyday Dad, one from The James Brand, and a few from Knife Standfards, All are in the 63 hrc range and perform very well.
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I hope you got in on the Dek1 magnacut pre-order 😉?
 
jstn said:
I did not, unfortunately. You can believe I’ll be overpaying for one in the secondary though!
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Hopefully there will be extras available on the regular sales! Best of luck hunting out down
 
A lot of the aforementioned steel properties and more directly contradict each other. For example, higher HRC would mean sharpening takes longer. Ease of sharpening means HRC has to be lower. Ease of sharpening would also cut the edge retention down a bit. This isn't true with every single steel property, there are some that can live in harmony, but a lot of them don't.

Making good steel is very chemical. The S, V, and N in s45vn all stand for a different element, besides S which means stainless. In order to adjust the steel properties (to favor edge retention, toughness, corrosion resistance) you need to adjust the ratio of elements/compounds. For example, 15V is so hard because it's been pumped with tones of vanadium, which ups the HRC potential. If you take some vanadium away, it's going to be less hard. Compromises will be necessary, for example you can't expect M4 to be stainless and corrosion resistant while it's so good in the hardness department.

In conclusion, Knife Steel Nerds is a whole lot smarter then me and can definitely explain it better, but that's a summary of how steel works.
 
Bluhrb said:
For example, higher HRC would mean sharpening takes longer. Ease of sharpening means HRC has to be lower. Ease of sharpening would also cut the edge retention down a bit.
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This is what everybody repeats over and over again but honestly higher HRC does not necessarily mean it's more difficult to sharpen unless the heat treatment is done poorly to achieve that higher rockwell hardness. In fact, what it can mean when you have lower hardness steels is it does not deburr properly.

I think in the knife Community we've done a poor job of articulating a very important part of the sharpening process. It's pretty important to be able to deburr cleanly.


Bluhrb said:
For example, 15V is so hard because it's been pumped with tones of vanadium, which ups the HRC potential. If you take some vanadium away, it's going to be less hard.
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What the vanadium is doing is making hard particles inside the steel, that doesn't necessarily reflect the HRC potential which has more to do with carbon in solution for making high hardness martensite.

We can see this when we max out the hardness on 4V versus 15V they both can achieve similar HRC, however there's clearly a difference in how the edges will dull thanks to the difference in carbide volume.
 
DeadboxHero said:
This is what everybody repeats over and over again but honestly higher HRC does not necessarily mean it's more difficult to sharpen unless the heat treatment is done poorly to achieve that higher rockwell hardness. In fact, what it can mean when you have lower hardness steels is it does not deburr properly.

I think in the knife Community we've done a poor job of articulating a very important part of the sharpening process. It's pretty important to be able to deburr cleanly.




What the vanadium is doing is making hard particles inside the steel, that doesn't necessarily reflect the HRC potential which has more to do with carbon in solution for making high hardness martensite.

We can see this when we max out the hardness on 4V versus 15V they both can achieve similar HRC, however there's clearly a difference in how the edges will dull thanks to the difference in carbide volume.
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I don't mean to argue with you cause obviously you're a lot more experienced in the field then I am so this is just out of curiosity, higher hardness means that it takes more scrubs/strokes to remove metal then it does for steels with lower hardness right, because softer steels are well, softer? And if it takes more strokes, it would take longer inherently to sharpen. In case I phrased my comment in a confusing way, I said, "higher HRC would mean sharpening takes longer," and after that used the phrase 'ease of sharpening.' My standard/unit of measurement for ease of sharpening is how convenient it is to sharpen the knife, and to me the less work you need to put in for a good edge makes the sharpening process more convenient and easy.

Again, obviously you work with Spyderco so I'm not questioning any of what you said, but I'd like to understand better.
 
Bluhrb said:
I don't mean to argue with you cause obviously you're a lot more experienced in the field then I am so this is just out of curiosity, higher hardness means that it takes more scrubs/strokes to remove metal then it does for steels with lower hardness right, because softer steels are well, softer? And if it takes more strokes, it would take longer inherently to sharpen. In case I phrased my comment in a confusing way, I said, "higher HRC would mean sharpening takes longer," and after that used the phrase 'ease of sharpening.' My standard/unit of measurement for ease of sharpening is how convenient it is to sharpen the knife, and to me the less work you need to put in for a good edge makes the sharpening process more convenient and easy.

Again, obviously you work with Spyderco so I'm not questioning any of what you said, but I'd like to understand better.
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Carbide volume actually plays more of a roll than hrc does when it comes to sharpening in my experience. For example S90V at 59 would require much more effort than 80crv2 at 63 simply due to carbide volume.
 
Hrc is only one of the factors, I've got Japanese kitchen knives at 64-65 hrc and they are amongst the easiest knives I have re sharpening. My Roselli UHC at 64-66 hrc is a bugger to sharpen, like glass. I've knives from low 50's hrc to mid 60's and ease of sharpening certainly isn't predicable simply using hardness/hrc.

It's the make up of the alloy as mentioned above. Rosellis UHC I'm not sure as it acts a little differently.
 
Bluhrb said:
I don't mean to argue with you cause obviously you're a lot more experienced in the field then I am so this is just out of curiosity, higher hardness means that it takes more scrubs/strokes to remove metal then it does for steels with lower hardness right, because softer steels are well, softer? And if it takes more strokes, it would take longer inherently to sharpen. In case I phrased my comment in a confusing way, I said, "higher HRC would mean sharpening takes longer," and after that used the phrase 'ease of sharpening.' My standard/unit of measurement for ease of sharpening is how convenient it is to sharpen the knife, and to me the less work you need to put in for a good edge makes the sharpening process more convenient and easy.

Again, obviously you work with Spyderco so I'm not questioning any of what you said, but I'd like to understand better.
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What you are saying can be correct, but often isn't. Like the example Shawn made where a lower hardness can make deburring a lot more time consuming. You can remove the material and form a stubborn burr on a softer steel, but you haven't finished sharpening yet. You are only half way.

Another example is where you can compare two different steels. The carbides in a lower hardness tool steel will take longer to abrade than a simple carbon steel that has high hardness and will generally have better edge retention.

It is way more complicated than just hardness or any other attribute.
 
luethge said:
3V
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This. ^^^

I saw the title of this thread and 3V was the first that came to my mind.


Like coolbreezy37 coolbreezy37 , I coulda' gone the rest of my life with a large/robust 1095 knife and a Buck companion fixie or folder in 420HC...and probably never known the difference from some of the fancier stuff available. That was until I met 3V. Man, what a remarkable steel. (*at least for my uses) It's stupid tough, takes a great edge and holds it very well, and is pretty damned corrosion resistant. So, I had to add it to my "Favorites" list to round-out the trifecta.

Admittedly, and kinda' like acquiring cell phones, I'm really not much for seeking-out the latest and greatest in steels. I have some MagnaCut, AEB-L, S90V, etc., but not because I went looking for them. I have those steels because I liked a particular design and that's what the Maker/Manufacturer offered. 🤷‍♂️
 
Alone said:
This. ^^^

I saw the title of this thread and 3V was the first that came to my mind.


Like coolbreezy37 coolbreezy37 , I coulda' gone the rest of my life with a large/robust 1095 knife and a Buck companion fixie or folder in 420HC...and probably never known the difference from some of the fancier stuff available. That was until I met 3V. Man, what a remarkable steel. (*at least for my uses) It's stupid tough, takes a great edge and holds it very well, and is pretty damned corrosion resistant. So, I had to add it to my "Favorites" list to round-out the trifecta.

Admittedly, and kinda' like acquiring cell phones, I'm really not much for seeking-out the latest and greatest in steels. I have some MagnaCut, AEB-L, S90V, etc., but not because I went looking for them. I have those steels because I liked a particular design and that's what the Maker/Manufacturer offered. 🤷‍♂️
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I’ve got a couple of knives I really like in 3V. The Dawson Big Bear and the CPK HDFK are awesome knives. Got a Busse TGULB and a SYKCO DB421 that just plain perform. I’m also really starting to enjoy 80CRV2 thanks to Winkler’s Field Knife.
 
I was incorrect about the relationship between steel hardness, carbide volume and carbide hardness.

Though, it raises me a question. If 420HC can have the same toughness and ease of sharpening like 1095, yet still cut more while being stainless, isn't it already beyond 1095 in the triangle?

Yet, people are fine with paying 100 to 200 USD for 1095 but absolutely not to a 420HC blade...
 
Bluhrb said:
I don't mean to argue with you cause obviously you're a lot more experienced in the field then I am so this is just out of curiosity, higher hardness means that it takes more scrubs/strokes to remove metal then it does for steels with lower hardness right, because softer steels are well, softer? And if it takes more strokes, it would take longer inherently to sharpen. In case I phrased my comment in a confusing way, I said, "higher HRC would mean sharpening takes longer," and after that used the phrase 'ease of sharpening.' My standard/unit of measurement for ease of sharpening is how convenient it is to sharpen the knife, and to me the less work you need to put in for a good edge makes the sharpening process more convenient and easy.

Again, obviously you work with Spyderco so I'm not questioning any of what you said, but I'd like to understand better.
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Deburring is what gets people

Counting stokes is not what the pros do.

Good technique and abrasives are what is important, makes hardness a non issue.

It takes me longer to sharpen soft, poorly heat treated steel to high sharpness due to deburring.



 
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