10 Degrees Per Side?

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Jun 27, 2006
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I recently read a review that advocated 10 degrees per side on the higher end stainless. I have an Endura in VG-10 and sharpened it last night to a burr at 10 degrees per side with a 15 degree microbevel per side.

It cuts great!! The best shaver I've ever had. My question is - Will VG-10 hold an edge at this narrow angle? Does anyone have any experience with this?
 
Will it hold an edge? Sure! That's a total angle of 30 degrees which is the way Spyderco factory ships most of their knives.

If you want to have some fun, sharpen the seconday/back bevel down to 6-8 degrees, and sharpen the primary/micro bevel to 10 degrees (20 total). You'll have a real hair splitter for sure.

VG-10 is good stuff and will hold an edge. It has radioactive cobalt in it (one of the few knive steels that use cobalt) so if you drop it in the dark it will glow and be easy to find. Here is some techy info about various knife steels.

http://www.ajh-knives.com/metals.html

Here's some sharpening info, geared towards the kitchen crowd, but has great pictures and explanations.

http://forums.egullet.com/index.php?showtopic=26036
 
DGG said:
It has radioactive cobalt in it (one of the few knive steels that use cobalt) so if you drop it in the dark it will glow and be easy to find.

Poor joke...
 
Nylon Rope, Packing Tape, Cardboard, Fish Bones & Soft Tissue, Packing Straps. Thats about it. I never really lay into thick branches or anything extremely hard.
 
Thom and Sodak have reported problems with similar geometries on those tasks, my blades have held up fine in those geometries. I personally consider that a fairly thick profile for those tasks and would be fairly harshly critical of a steel which needed a significantly thicker profile to do such work. In general you need to consider that the initial edge may not be representative of performance so give the knife at least 1-2 full sharpenings to see if the performance stabilizes.

-Cliff
 
I've had some problems at those angles, but from what others have noted, VG10 should be able to handle that. I'm currently re-sharpening my problem knife, and will put it through it's paces over the next couple of weeks, hoping to wear it down enough for a couple of good sharpenings on 600 DMT. As long as you're not planning on a lot of knotty wood or twisting type forces, I'd say go for it. Like you noted, you can always put a microbevel on it for stability.

PS - I forgot to mention, yes, the edges hold up longer at these angles, and continue to cut better (than thicker grinds), even as they dull.
 
Thanks for the input guys. I feel that the lower angles might fit me better. I like to sharpen my knife and like to use them until they are worn out. I would often sharpen even if only a slight dulling appeared. Since I was sharpening frequently already, I don't think I will mind if it dulls a little faster.

THE CUTTING PERFORMANCE WILL PROBABLY MAKE IT WORTH THE WORK!! At 10 degrees it is like a razor blade. Much less effort was required to make cuts at work today. No dulling is apparent yet.

I must say that I was very impressed at how hard the VG-10 is. It took me about 30 minutes on an Edge-Pro, which to me is an eternity. It was very hard to reprofile. I may be wrong, but I feel that the VG-10 is harder to grind than S30V.

Cliff, when you say some guys are having problems, what do you mean? Are edges rolling? Are they denting? Breaking?
 
Sodak you have had problems with VG 10 at 15 degrees? Chipping? Rolling? Was the edge put on with a jig and the edge bevels flat? I have a Calypso JR that I've hand thinned it has a convexed bevel and it was held at an angle of under 10 degrees I am guessing the very edge is probably around 10 degrees give or take some. I've had no edge problems at all its held up good.
 
You guys are too fast for me! Here's what I've been doing. I, too, like the thin edges. I started out thinning some of my D2 knives, Queen 4180 Hunter and others, and had it down to 10 per side, give or take. Keep in mind this is all on my edgepro so the actual angle is a little bit less since the edgepro indexes off the flat grind of the blade, not the centerline. Anyway, once I got my Queen D2 down like that, wow! This would outcut *every* knife I have, and by a large margin. I could go through what seemed like a mile of cardboard and it would hardly start to dull. A couple of swipes on the ceramic rod, put a nice microbevel on it, and it would cut for *another* mile. Those are South Dakota miles, which means they are as long or short as I care to make them. :D But you get the idea. I thought I had it all figured out. D2, and thiiiiiiiin.

Well, diversity is a good thing in cutting. After enjoying this for several weeks, I was making a fuzz stick out of pitch pine, wood so soft you could dent it with your fingernail. What I was doing was cutting the stick with a slight scooping motion. To my shock, I was taking very large chunks out of my edge. Probably 1/16 of an inch or so, maybe larger. Yikes! The only good thing is that I found the limits of D2, at least on that particular knife. I put the knife on a DMT blue, and eyeballed a microbevel on the blade, and removed the damage in 5 minutes. There is still evidence of one of the missing chunks, but it will sharpen out. The microbevel also strengthened the blade enough that when I went back to making the fuzz stick, no more damage was incurred. I tried this with another D2 blade, with similar results, although I was a helluva lot more careful on the scooping, let me tell you!

Anyway, a couple of nights ago I put my Calypso Jr in VG10 on the edgepro, and took it down to 15 deg per side, all the way up to the 3000 grit tape. The edge was perfectly dark, no light reflecting, and I could "tree top" trim arm hair, a couple or three per pass. Not as good as a straight razor, but plenty sharp for me. They I went and cut some cardboard, a milk box from Costco, to be exact. I made about 2 dozen cut from top to bottom, working my way around the box. After doing that, the blade was pretty warm. Not enough to burn your fingers, but it got your attention. The edge was now reflecting light in a "wavy" pattern. Not good. So, I decided to try the fuzz stick. Started scooping, started chipping. *Much* smaller chips than the D2, but I didn't mike them. Once again, the chips came out quickly on a DMT blue, but this time I kept the bevel, and microbeveled on a DMT red (600 grit). So far, no problems, but I haven't had time to get back to it. I am planning on doing a lot of testing in the next couple of weeks on both of these.

A couple of observations. First of all, I really like both D2 and VG10. I also like this Queen model and Spyderco model. Nothing at all against either company or knife. I'm trying to find the limits for both, and the only way to do it is to go past the limit. I'm trying to do that without destroying either one, so I can come back from the edge and still use the knife for a long time. So please don't take this as a slam on either company. I'm not irritated or anything, just curious.

As CMSpeedy and db have undoubtably found out, having a really thin edge that just glides through media is a wonderful feeling. I can't describe it, you really have to experience it for yourself. It takes cutting to a whole 'nuther level. Plus, these thin edges stay sharp a WHOLE lot longer than thick edges, and can be brought back to full sharpness in less than a minute, even freehand. They are fantastic. Db, enjoy your re-ground Calypso. I'll bet it's a real pleasure to use.

I apologize to everyone who's heard this story 5 times already. Even with the hard lessons I'm learning, it's well worth it. Good stuff!
 
Sodak, thanks for your edge stories. :)
I wonder if you tried putting the same low 10 degrees on but did it free hand producing a convex bevel if the edges would hold up better? Maybe worth a try? It would make it a hair thicker behind the edge but I don't think it would be a noticeable difference in cutting, and may strenthin the edge a little wile still keeping the edge angle low.
 
I've spent a lot of time searching for the 'perfect' edge for my blades, most of which are folders.

Typical application is utility slicer, for materials up to hardwoods. Testing is whittling a fresh point on an old hardwood rake handle (unknown hardwood, but 'hard'). No chopping or batoning or impact use whatsoever.

Blade steels are D2(806D2), S30V(Manix and SMF), VG10(Ronin), 440V/S60V(Military) and ATS34(Buck/Strider Tarani).

All edges are profiled at 20 degrees included angle.

None of the edges were stable at 20 degrees included. ATS34 rolled and the others showed edge-chipping under hard slicing pressure.

The 440V/S60V Military blade stabilized with a micro-bevel between 25 and 30 degrees included.

All others stabilized with micro-bevels of 30 degrees included.

That's about as close to 'perfect' as I've found. The main bevels at 20 degrees included contribute to good slicing efficiency. The micro-bevels at 30 degrees included sufficently strengthen the edge for hardwood-slicing.

Using newsprint-slicing to test for sharpness, the difference between micro-beveled edges and non-micro-beveled (20 degrees included) were imperceptible.

Hope this helps!
 
gud4u said:
None of the edges were stable at 20 degrees included. ATS34 rolled and the others showed edge-chipping under hard slicing pressure.

What extent of damage, how much force are you using? How expansive was the micro - visible or sub-mm?

db said:
....putting the same low 10 degrees on but did it free hand producing a convex bevel if the edges would hold up better?

And the myth of the convex edge lives on. This is very likely to eliminate the problem for reasons that have nothing to do with the bevel being made convex. This is really advocated by some guys using the scandinavian blades because when they convex the bevels they get *much* more durable. Obviously proof that convexing is more durable right?

What is actually happening is that the initial bevel is hollow, not flat, and thus the actual edge can be as low as 5 degrees per side and when it is convexed on sandpaper on a soft media it increases to 10-15 per side at the edge apex. This massive increase in angle makes a massive increase in durability. Of course if you just flatten it with a suitable micro as gud4u noted you would have the same abilities.

I would bet the VG-10 edges on Sodak's knives are weak due to the steel which will be removed with subsequent sharpening, convex or otherwise. You should be able to cut cardboard with no visible damage with pretty much any bevel, I have done it as low as five per side. If this continues to happen, rather than make the bevel more obtuse, 15+ is just silly on knife cutting cardboard/woods, return it because it is defective and get a more representative sample.

-Cliff
 
Some very interesting comments.

For about two years I EDC'd VG10 Calypso Jrs reprofiled to about 12 degrees per side with just a very minimum microbevel of about 15 degrees added. I gave away several reworked this way to friends and co-workers, and except for one I know of, they all held up remarkably, including some pretty good mischief and abuse (telling people you'll resharpen knives you give them provides a lot of feedback on what's working in the field and what isn't.)

IMO VG10 is kind of a sweet spot in stainless blade steels due to its ability to hold up at fairly acute edge angles, along with relatively low cost, and apparently not being too difficult to heat treat compared to something like S30V for example.
 
“ cliff said..
And the myth of the convex edge lives on.
And just what myth would that be in my post? Did you read the hole post? Are you saying that a convex bevel is not thicker than a flat bevel when the edge is at the same angle? Is a thicker bevel not stronger, than a thinner one? Are these just myths? Wouldn't a little more steel behind the edge help with rolling and or chipping? wouldn't it be worth a try to see if it helps or should we just blame the steel like your doing? Sodak sorry for trying to help guess my post is just a myth, that seems to work on my VG 10 blade.
 
Db, I challenge you to draw a convex grind on my template that has the same edge angle and is stronger (wider at some or all points) within the defined edge width. The one on the right is a multibevel grind as a 20 degree per side edge and 9 degree relief/primary grind.

grind1.jpg
 
What extent of damage, how much force are you using? How expansive was the micro - visible or sub-mm

Just visible and/or sensible by strumming the edge. I stopped at the the first sign of any edge damage, since edge-damage tends to propagate and since chip repair involves honing away all metal surrounding the chip. I'm lazy.

I'm not scientific enough to measure slicing pressure. My guess would be 35 pounds or less (pointing a hardwood rake handle).

The micro-bevels are quite narrow. You can spot them by light-reflection or by magnifier, otherwise not noticeable. Two or three passes per bevel with a CrO-loaded strop makes the 'shoulders' of the micro-bevels disappear (in other words, stropping the shoulders of the micro-bevels creates 'convexed bevels').

My favorite touch-up sharpening method is 2 or 3 hand-held passes per micro-bevel with the little Spyderco DoubleStuff hone.

Riddle me this, Cliff:
If I can't form a serviceable edge with these steels at 20 degrees includes, what do you and guys like Alvin cut with those knives honed to included angles of 10 degrees or less?
 
db said:
Wouldn't a little more steel behind the edge help with rolling and or chipping?

It can actually make it worse depending on the knife and the application, but specifically in the above I was speaking of the general myth that the properties inherent in the convex bevel are due to the curvature and not simply the cross section.

gud4u said:
My guess would be 35 pounds or less (pointing a hardwood rake handle).

I didn't want/require significant precision, I should have made it clear I was thinking of whittling vs roughing to shape. So more of wrist vs shoulder cutting. That looks to be about intermediate between the two to me, heavy cutting you could do for a long time I would assume which seems a solid choice for a test.

If I can't form a serviceable edge with these steels at 20 degrees includes, what do you and guys like Alvin cut with those knives honed to included angles of 10 degrees or less?

They are not the same steels, the carbide and grain size is *much* finer. You can't even sharpen the coarse steels that low, the edge just breaks apart. It won't even form let alone have any edge retention. Alvin cuts everything with his including metal flashing and various wires, opens cans, etc. . The metal cutting is usually done with his "blunt" blades (stockman) which means about 6-8 per side vs pretty much full for the knives that just cut soft media.

On the coarse utility stainless I run almost the exact same profiles you describe. I run Wilson's S30V blade a little finer but it can handle it because it is harder than most and the higher temperature reduces the problem of carbide stability. So 7/9 full no primary works well on soft materials, I have not checked it extensively on hard woods with a full profile. I run the 12C27m blades typically 8-9 primary and 10-12 secondary just due to the natural sweep of the stone. I would run them full flat but the stones just wear and it isn't like an extra 2 degrees scuttles the cutting ability, plus it gives me a little room to be sloppy around knots.

-Cliff
 
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