1080+, 1084, or 52100 For My First Knife

Ares1307

Ares1307

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Jun 14, 2012
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I know there are a lot of these types of posts, and I'm sorry to make another one. I am wanting to make my first knife, I have done a ton of research and have practiced profiling and grinding/filing a bevel on cheap steel from my local hardware store. I have been using my angle grinder to do most of the work (cutting out my blank and rough grinding my bevel), but I have a tendency to overheat my workpiece, so I'm going to be using a file to do my grinding. The knife I want to make will be 9 - 10 inches in length, 1.5 inches in width, and 3/32 - 1/8 inches thick, and will be used a LOT to cut everything from cardboard, paper, rope, meat, and (probably) mostly wood. I will be sending the knife out for HT, so that shouldn't be much of an issue. I want this knife to be a solid knife, something that can handle hard use. The two biggest attributes I am looking for from the steel is grindability (especially since I am hand filing and that takes forever) and edge retention.

I chose these three steels because I like the individual qualities of each steel and they are around the same price. However I haven't found any information comparing these three steels, which is why I am asking for help. Also, the 1084 and 52100 are both pickled and annealed, but the 1080+ does not specify if it annealed or not (so I assume it is not), its from Alpha Knife Supply so if you have any experience with this steel any information would be helpful. I don't have a forge so I cannot anneal the steel myself, so I have to use it how I get it. I'm assuming that if the 1080+ is not annealed that it will be the hardest (most time consuming) option for filing, but I have no experience with any of these steels so I need some advice. I want the easiest steel for filing with the best edge retention possible. If there is a steel that would be better suited to my needs at around the same price, please let me know. My biggest restraint, besides lack of skill, is lack of funds, so keeping the price low is key. Thank you for taking the time to read my long-winded post, and thank you in advance for any advice/suggestions/recommendations given.

And for the record, its late and I'm half asleep, so I hope this all makes sense...:D
 
Nearly all steel from a knifemaking supply comes annealed.

1080+ has no big advantage over 1084 unless you are forging. 52100 has more carbon and some chromium alloy for toughness. Of the three 52100 will make the best knife.
 
I just started working with 52100, but have previously used 1084, 1095, O1, 15n20, and W2. I noticed the 52100 has dulled the belts quicker (all steel is in the annealed state.) I thought it was just placebo effect, but I went back and forth last night with scraps, and it is a bit slower to grind. I don't know if I am experiencing something unusual here, but if this is your first knife, try the 1084, as it is really easy to work with. O1 will be more wear resistant than the 1084, but is three times the price. I don't think 1095 offers much advantage over 1084, unless you want to go thinner with a finer edge. 15n20 is a good choice with good wear resistance. In the end, the geometry will have as much influence as steel type, so for a first knife, get some experience under your belt, then put more thought into steel type. It is good to think application first, then obtain materials, rather than thinking "what can I make from this.....?"
 
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Since you'll be sending the knife out for heat treatment, I'd go with 52100. All three will make a great knife, but all things considered, 52100 will outperform the other two. If you were doing your own heat treat, I'd suggest either the 1080+ or 1084. I don't think anyone could tell the difference between the two in performance when heat treated properly.
 
I recently made my first knife from O1. I'm very happy with edge retention/performance in use. It was easy enough to grind when annealed, but an absolute bear after heat treat.
 
I agree, go with 52100 since you're sending out for HT.

When dealing with Alpha Knife Supply or New Jersey Steel Baron, don't be shy to call them if you have a question. Both firms are run by very knowledgeable, friendly people who can answer any concerns you may have, and a lot you might never have thought of. :thumbup:
 
Bladesmth- So the steel from AKS is probably annealed as well? Thanks for the heads up.

Thank you guys for the help. I have really been wanting to try the 52100, but kept reading about 1080 and 1084 being recommended for beginners, so I didn't want to bite off more than I could chew with 52100. I'm very happy that 52100 is something I can do by hand, I really like what I've read about it. I went looking around town to see what files are available locally, the only brand that I saw that was people recommend on the forum is Nicholson for $9 - $11 each. I'm going to look online too. Thanks again for the information everybody.
 
The difference I noted in grinding the 52100 isn't a big enough difference to deter someone from using it. For files, look at some of the more industrial suppliers. Nicholson used to be a great name in files, but they have outsourced in recent years and quality is variable. Grobet makes good files. I bought two new files, plus 6 needle files (for guards) last week from Lee Valley. Brand name is Center. I went to get the Grobets, but the salesman recommended these when I told him what I was doing. I haven't used Grobet files, but I am thrilled with these. I spent $120.00, but these cut faster than my 1x30 used to!!!! I would buy a good set of files before a 1x30 again. When it comes to sandpaper, same deal. I spent weeks sanding my first bowie, then bought the 3m autobody sandpaper, and finished the blade in 6h. I have several boxes of the cheaper paper (my wife bought it for me by mistake, the packaging looked almost the same- so she didn't realize the cheaper stuff was a different brand.) Try to order the Rhynolyte paper. It seems to be the go to paper here.
 
Thanks for the info Willie71. I had thought that Nicholson was my best bet, I was already set on the magicu, I'm glad you chimed in. I can't find the Center files that you mentioned. And I found some Grobet files and Simonds Multi-Kut files, which of those would be better at removing material quickly and easily?
 
I have some recent Brazilian Nicholson files and although they are not as good as the usa made ones, they do work = but maybe for not as long.

In your case, I think if you can find the largest possible files locally,

As long as you are referencing "known" brands I think size is more related to coarseness of cut and will remove material faster than a better brand in a smaller file


If you buy it locally, you save shipping which could easily equal the cost of one file, also you have the ability to return it if you happen to get a bad one.
 
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Thanks for the info. I live in a very small town, and have only found Nicholson files locally, and only the normal files (No Magicut). If I bought them both in town I would save me a little, but I'm not sure if they are USA/Mexico/Etc made, and I don't remember what sizes are available in town (I think 10 inches is the biggest in town ATM). I am looking to start with two files, a Flat and Half Round (both coarse). I found both of these, 10 inch Half Round Simonds Multi-Kut and 12 inch Flat Simonds Multi-Kut, these should be perfect right? I would like to spend as little as possible, but with that said, if the Simonds will cut noticeably faster and easier then the price difference is worth the performance in my humble opinion.
 
Willie71 said:
The difference I noted in grinding the 52100 isn't a big enough difference to deter someone from using it.
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Agreed!

By "beginner" steel, we generally mean a steel that is fairly simple chemically, and therefore possible to achieve close-to-optimum results with very basic heat-treating equipment. 1084 is great for that, and makes fine knives. Simple steels are also easier to forge if one goes that route. Since you are working by the stock-removal method and sending out for professional HT, you can use any cutlery steel you desire, since they're all available in an annealed state.

Incidentally, you're wise to choose relatively thin stock. 3/32" - 1/8" by 1 1/2" can make a very keen blade that is still quite tough, and it won't take a month to file the bevels by hand. :thumbup:
 
Ares1307 said:
Thanks for the info. I live in a very small town, and have only found Nicholson files locally, and only the normal files (No Magicut). If I bought them both in town I would save me a little, but I'm not sure if they are USA/Mexico/Etc made, and I don't remember what sizes are available in town (I think 10 inches is the biggest in town ATM). I am looking to start with two files, a Flat and Half Round (both coarse). I found both of these, 10 inch Half Round Simonds Multi-Kut and 12 inch Flat Simonds Multi-Kut, these should be perfect right? I would like to spend as little as possible, but with that said, if the Simonds will cut noticeably faster and easier then the price difference is worth the performance in my humble opinion.
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I've purchased a Simonds MultiKut, it is essentially the same as a Nicholson Magicut, and it is a great file. You've been given great advice on files in this thread. The Nicholson files made in Mexico are hit and miss. The Nicholson files made in Brazil are slightly better. The USA made Nicholson files are WAY sharper and better than Mexico or Brazil made files. The larger the file, the coarser the cut. A 14" bastard is more aggressive than a 10" bastard. I have no experience with the Swiss or German brand, but I'm sure they're great as well. Your choice of Simonds files is perfect, IMHO. USA made Nicholson files are harder to find, but they can be had. I found a 12" Nicholson USA made in Lowe's the other day, and it cuts like a dream. If you care to, many people go on Ebay and search NOS files, which means New Old Stock. These are old files (USA made usually) that haven't been sold, and sitting around in warehouses or whatever. You can find great files for good prices that way.

I have ZERO experience with 52100, so take this however you wish. If you are going to send it out for heat treat.....there is no reason I could think of to NOT go with the 52100 steel over the 1080/1084. ONLY if you're sending it out. The difference in grinding ability between 52100 and 1084 will be negligible to you, I'm almost positive. If it were me, I would go with the better steel (52100) if you're NOT heat treating it yourself. If you ARE going to heat treat yourself, and I highly recommend you try it sometime, there is no question about it....the 1080/1084 is your best bet. Good luck on your project! Have fun and be safe!
 
Thanks for the help and advice. I found a 14 inch Multi-Kut Flat, I'm going to check out those NOS Nicholsons you mentioned too. I'm actually thinking about trying to make my own forge, I even found an old (in good condition) two drawer filing cabinet, but I don't know if its safe to heat up... I also gathered up a couple of old toaster oven things. I'm grabbing anything and everything that I think MIGHT make a good forge. LOL. I'm going to make a charcoal forge and hook it up to either a blow dryer (if its small) or if its big enough I'll hook it up to my leaf blower... I saw one on YT hooked up to a leaf blower and that thing got HOT. :eek::D
 
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