1080/1084 Working sequence?

JG Custom Metal Works

JG Custom Metal Works

Joined
Nov 27, 2013
Messages
1,626
Okay, so up until this point I've been a stock removal guy. I've got my forge and anvil setup and I'm getting 28ft of 1080 tomorrow. I need to gain a clearer understanding of the working sequence for 1084/1080.

I've done a good amount of research and have come up with some good info from Kevin Cashen here: http://www.cashenblades.com/steel/1084.html

That pretty much explains everything I need but I'm a little stuck on the annealing part. He states: "Heat to 1500 °F (815 °C). Furnace cool to 1200 °F (650 °C) at a rate not exceeding 50 °F (28 °C) per hour." I don't have a furnace so would it be okay to heat to 1500F and then stick it in some perlite(in an ammo can)? If so, could I just use perlite from a nursery/home depot or does it need to be special? IIRC this is how Ed Caffery does it on his forging video.

I would greatly appreciate any info you guys could provide me in regards to forging 1084/1080. I'd love to hear your methods. I've come to terms with the fact that I'm going to ruin some steel getting around the forging learning curve, but I'm trying to minimize loss. Again, I'd greatly appreciate the help.
 
Those with more experience than me will speak up, but I've never needed to anneal 1084. After forging, I usually just normalize once (heat to bright orange, i.e. above Acm) let air cool, thermal cycle once (heat just to critical and let air cool) and then do a quasi sub-critical anneal /stress relief (heat to a dark red and let air cool). After that, grinding and drilling has never been a problem.
 
And be sure to forge at a high enough heat (bright orange). Lots of low-heat forging/thermal cycling is not only potentially bad for the blade if the heat is too low, but can also lead to alloy banding (which looks cool, but is not so great for the knife). If you do get alloy banding though, you can fix it by a high temp normalizing.
 
Unless you have a HT oven, just cycle the steel in the forge.

Heat to 1600-1650F and air cool to black
Heat to just above non-magnetic (1450F) and air cool to black
Heat to a little BELOW non-magnetic ( around 1250F) and air cool to black. Once cooled to 900F, water quench.

After each forging session is done for the day, you can do the same thing to normalize the blades, even if you will be forging again later on.

Just before HT do it again, and then austenitize at 1475 and quench in fast oil.
 
Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith said:
Unless you have a HT oven, just cycle the steel in the forge.

Heat to 1600-1650F and air cool to black
Heat to just above non-magnetic (1450F) and air cool to black
Heat to a little BELOW non-magnetic ( around 1250F) and air cool to black. Once cooled to 900F, water quench.

After each forging session is done for the day, you can do the same thing to normalize the blades, even if you will be forging again later on.

Just before HT do it again, and then austenitize at 1475 and quench in fast oil.
Click to expand...

I don't have a HT oven or a PID/thermocouple in my forge so determining the temperature of the blade might be a little tricky for me. For the last part of the cycle you mentioned(the 1250f, air cool to 900f, and then water quench), would it work to just stick it in Perlite since I don't have the means to read temperature?

I take it the first two steps are normalizing and the last would be annealing, right?

Finally, you're saying I should repeat the process after grinding, before heat treat?

Thanks a bunch Stacy, I really appreciate the help.
 
Ok, from reading stickies, etc, I thought I knew the process for making a knife from 1084 but I guess I need more education. I think I'm getting my terms messed up.

I was going to cut out the knife shape from my Aldo's 1084 bar stock, profile it and grind the bevel almost to where I want it, then put it into a home made propane forge until passing non-magnetic a little, and then plunge it into an oil bath. Quickly after I was going to put the blade into my oven for a cycle of heating (can't think of the temp right now) let it cool then repeat. Then I thought it was all done and ready for final grinding.

Is there more to 1084 than this?
 
Rancho5 said:
Ok, from reading stickies, etc, I thought I knew the process for making a knife from 1084 but I guess I need more education. I think I'm getting my terms messed up.

I was going to cut out the knife shape from my Aldo's 1084 bar stock, profile it and grind the bevel almost to where I want it, then put it into a home made propane forge until passing non-magnetic a little, and then plunge it into an oil bath. Quickly after I was going to put the blade into my oven for a cycle of heating (can't think of the temp right now) let it cool then repeat. Then I thought it was all done and ready for final grinding.

Is there more to 1084 than this?
Click to expand...

My question was in regards to forging 1084/1080. When you heat a piece of metal up to forging temps(2000F+) it causes grain growth in the steel. This isn't good and it needs to be normalized to reset the grain.

If your just doing stock removal, you don't need to do anything other than the process you posted. Oh and I've tempered at 400F for two 1hr cycles in the oven. Worked good.
 
Rancho5 said:
Ok, from reading stickies, etc, I thought I knew the process for making a knife from 1084 but I guess I need more education. I think I'm getting my terms messed up.

I was going to cut out the knife shape from my Aldo's 1084 bar stock, profile it and grind the bevel almost to where I want it, then put it into a home made propane forge until passing non-magnetic a little, and then plunge it into an oil bath. Quickly after I was going to put the blade into my oven for a cycle of heating (can't think of the temp right now) let it cool then repeat. Then I thought it was all done and ready for final grinding.

Is there more to 1084 than this?
Click to expand...


That will work fine for a stock removal blade in 1084.
 
Stacy, is the water quenching at 900 F after the last cycle just for convenience (you can handle the knife sooner) or is there another reason?
 
Tenebr0s said:
Stacy, is the water quenching at 900 F after the last cycle just for convenience (you can handle the knife sooner) or is there another reason?
Click to expand...

That's one thing I'm kind of stuck on too. I've read that that others recommend either leaving in the forge to cool down or putting it in perlite. I think I read not to let it cool faster than 50f per hour.

I have no means to accurately test whether it's 900f exactly so I wonder it it would be okay to use the perlite method? Maybe heat up some mild steel to put in there with it?
 
Continuous cooling slowly from the pearlite range to room temp will promote fine pearlite. Fine pearlite is much harder than one would think. Cooling from the pearlite range ( 900F) to room temp rapidly creates coarse pearlite, which grinds, drills, sands, etc. much easier.


For a mental visual, pretend that pearlite is layers of wood. Make a random stack of 2X4s as a wall and it won't be hard to knock a hole in the wall. Make a tight stack of 1/4 sheets of plywood and it will be a much harder task to knock a hole in it.
 
GREAT question from Kyoto Japan, TenebrOs! I've always wondered the same, never thought to ask. Thank you Stacy. That is good info right there!
 
One thing to remember about Aldo steel is that some, if not most of the simple carbon/tool steel is delivered in a spheroidized, or, in some cases like 52100, a HIGHLY spheroidized condition. That says that you would want to "normalize" it to dissolve those carbides even if you are a stock removal guy.
 
My regime is very close to Stacy's minus the additional cycling prior to final heat treat. If you aren't changing the structure, why would you need to thermal cycle again? In fact, I believe you could overdo it with some steels and end up with decreased hardenability(I seem to remember problems with over-cycling 1095 and W2) If anything, a 1250F stress relieving cycle might help you avoid warp issues from over-heating while grinding.

Here is my regime(whether forged or not)...

Heat to 1650-1700F, cool to fully magnetic
Heat to 1500-1525F, cool to fully magnetic
Heat to 1450-1475F, Oil quench
Heat to 1300F(red but still magnetic) 2-3 times, cooling to black in between.
Cold work as needed
Heat to 1200-1250F(very dull red) to relieve cold working stress
Heat to 1475-1500F, Oil quench
As soon as piece cools down to 130F, begin tempering cycles.
 
Rick, my experience over the last few years is that the post grinding stress relief cycle has absolutely eliminated almost all warping issues in my work. I do it in heat treat foil.
Rick Marchand said:
My regime is very close to Stacy's minus the additional cycling prior to final heat treat. If you aren't changing the structure, why would you need to thermal cycle again? In fact, I believe you could overdo it with some steels and end up with decreased hardenability(I seem to remember problems with over-cycling 1095 and W2) If anything, a 1250F stress relieving cycle might help you avoid warp issues from over-heating while grinding.

Here is my regime(whether forged or not)...

Heat to 1650-1700F, cool to fully magnetic
Heat to 1500-1525F, cool to fully magnetic
Heat to 1450-1475F, Oil quench
Heat to 1300F(red but still magnetic) 2-3 times, cooling to black in between.
Cold work as needed
Heat to 1200-1250F(very dull red) to relieve cold working stress
Heat to 1475-1500F, Oil quench
As soon as piece cools down to 130F, begin tempering cycles.
Click to expand...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top