1084 for kitchen knives?

Fitzhugh

Fitzhugh

Joined
Feb 5, 2013
Messages
194
I have only a single decent kitchen knife, a Japanese knife with high carbon sandwiched between stainless. It is a joy to work with. I just started making woodworking blades thanks to the help and info I found here and have caught the bug for making some kitchen knives.

I notice I can taste the high carbon steel when I cut apples, especially if I've just sharpened the knife and it does not yet have a patina. Since I make a lot of apple tarts and pies I want to know if this is normal, if there is something proper to do to reduce or prevent it, and whether I'll find a whole blade of 1084 really a problem in this way. I don't mind the effort involved in caring for a non-stainless knife, I just don't want to make one and not use it cause the food tastes bad. Should I limit their use to, say, non-acidic foods? Can I do something to form a patina, and does the patina also reduce sharpness?

Thanks

Edit: I should clarify: I don't expect to make a super high quality blade. I just like the idea of making my own and it can't be as bad as the majority of the knives here. I only took up serious cooking a few years back and have been waiting to get good knives. If I can make OK ones I'll be thrilled. 1084 is what I can easily work with. I would rather heat treat myself and get OK results than have someone else do it and get great results.
 
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i know of a guy that uses 1084 for kitchen knives. his knives do fine. as most carbon steel knives, once a patina has set (depends on the kind of carbon steel it is on how long for it to stabilize), acidity will not be an issue.

=D
 
I remember reading somewhere that chefs usually let their knives rest after sharpening to avoid affecting the taste.
 
Rinsing with backing soda solution is another way to inhibit reactivity.
Once a good patina installed, it will soon reappear after thinning or sharpening.
 
I carry this knife every day it is 1084- its patina has come from cutting a lot of fruit with the knife, especially apples - Once the patina fully established itself the fruit didn't have the metallic taste. I would let you knife sit for a moment after you've used it. Do this a couple of times and let the knife form a patina (some people just don't like this discoloration) for it is just caused by oxidation / acidity.

I'm not 100 %positive on this, I believe if you leave the knife as polished steel you will continue to have that metallic taste.

You will get a lot of people telling you to oil your blade, which I find completely unnecessary - just use it, wash it and keep it dry.

I have also wondered if the patina effects the edge, from consistant usage I would say that it doesn't, from wikipedia

"Tarnish is a surface phenomenon, that is self-limiting unlike rust. Only the top few layers of the metal react, and the layer of tarnish seals and protects the underlying layers from reacting.Tarnish actually preserves the underlying metal in outdoor use and is called patina."

so in usage as you can see from this photo, the patina is usually removed from the edge when I go to cut something a bit more fibrous. Conversely I believe it may cause some damage to the edge if it sat like that for an extended period of time, un-used.

wheeler3_zps31b0c1d9.jpg
 
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That's reassuring to read. I actually like the patina's look. I checked just now and I'm not getting the taste or smell and the patina is dark and consistent. I'll try to remember to sharpen and cut some apples a few days before and not day of next large baking day.

I made my first little test knife out of 1084. The blade is small enough that I didn't get it in the quench in time so I'm currently tempering after hardening. The above means it can be the paring knife I need instead of a non kitchen knife, and can make some more once I get the HT down.

Thanks!
 
You can get a natural patina by cutting up a lot of reactive foods like onion, apples, citrus fruits, potatoes, tomatoes, etc., or you can force a patina with vinegar or lemon juice. Forcing the patina will give you more uniform coverage on all parts of the knife, but it won't prevent a more natural patina from developing later on. Combine one part vinegar or lemon juice to one part water and add a few drops of liquid soap. Wet a paper towel or a cloth with the mixture and wipe it onto all parts of the knife. Keep wiping more on continuously for a few minutes until you reach the desired level of darkness.
And 1084 will make a fine kitchen knife — it's pretty much indistinguishable from 1095, but not as good as W2 or 52100.

- Chris
 
A few suggestions if you don't mind. Clean up the very edge when forcing a patina to avoid unnecessary dulling. Make a slicing movement on a cork without any pressure, it's all you need.
Degrease the blade with alcohol before applying the acid stuff.
After the oxidation, rinse with the hottest water you may get. That will be your finest moment I guess.
 
That is exactly the info I needed, thank you both! I searched and found references to forcing patinas but nothing beyond using lemon or vinegar. The rest of the details - how much, the soap, the cork, alcohol, hot water, that filled in the gaps.

The first tiny little knife I made took a really sharp edge and seems to hold it well. Very encouraging.

"No Honey, I'm not wasting time and money making crap in the shop, I'm making Christmas presents for your family!"
Think that should buy me shop time until December. It's now March... :)
In truth she's just jealous I have the time to do this stuff.
 
Once you fiddle with patinas more, you can find certain things to produce specific colors.

Generally acids will darken or grey the steel, while fruits and blood will add blues reds oranges greens and sometimes yellow.

If you can pinpoint exactly what does what, you can 'paint' designs to your liking.

I personally have this 270mm slicer with a snake scale pattern patina, outlines of scales is lemon (dark grey) with tuna and beef blood inside scale for blue sheen. Everything has a weird metallic rainbow sheen and it is quite beautiful.

It's a shame i can't upload pics from an iPhone to here...
 
if you want to see examples of forced patinas head on to the Becker sub-forum and check out what some guys have done to their knives. Forcing patinas is fun and useful.
 
quite happy with 1084 in the kitchen. i dont worry about patina. have no issue with steel taste.
ncleaver.jpg
basic cleaver, 7 x 2 1/2" 1084 blade, maple handle
 
What you are talking about is reactivity. Soem steels can be stinky and cause food to discolor. I don't know about 1084, but a very knowledgable customer of mine tells me that W2 is among the least reactive of the commonly used carbon steels.
 
jdm61 said:
What you are talking about is reactivity. Soem steels can be stinky and cause food to discolor. I don't know about 1084, but a very knowledgable customer of mine tells me that W2 is among the least reactive of the commonly used carbon steels.
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I have heard people say that about W2 as well, but chemically speaking it has no resistance to oxidation and therefor its reactivity should be identical to W1/1095 which all have similar carbon contents and alloys/lack thereof. Vanadium in the W2 should have no affect on oxidation to my knowledge (anybody have information on this?). Nickel does some and chromium does when it's not up in carbides, but W2 has neither. I wonder if some of the perceived differences in reactivity between different carbon steels are not confounded with the degree of polish on the blade. The finer the polish the less surface area for reaction to take place and differences in surface area can be HUGE between say a blade taken to 400 grit and a blade taken to 1200 grit and buffed. Without having identical surface areas/per inch of blade any comparison of reactivity between steels may be completely misleading.
 
Good info, thank you! It's odd, the blade I mentioned has only a very small amount of HC steel showing along the edge since it's sandwiched in between stainless. It sure made apples taste bad when freshly sharpened with 6000 water stone or 2000 wet/dry. The taste went away when the patina formed. I made one tiny little paring knife so far - well, made the blade. The handle is gluing up as I type, still needs some carving and a finish on the wood. Got another waiting to finish shaping after forging, where forging means banging on hot metal with a hammer and no clue what I'm doing :)
 
HankG said:
Good info, thank you! It's odd, the blade I mentioned has only a very small amount of HC steel showing along the edge since it's sandwiched in between stainless. It sure made apples taste bad when freshly sharpened with 6000 water stone or 2000 wet/dry. The taste went away when the patina formed. I made one tiny little paring knife so far - well, made the blade. The handle is gluing up as I type, still needs some carving and a finish on the wood. Got another waiting to finish shaping after forging, where forging means banging on hot metal with a hammer and no clue what I'm doing :)
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It is strange that it would cause a bad taste with that little steel showing, but the patina really does make a huge difference. I call polished carbon blades "naked"- it's not the way they're designed to work! My personal kitchen knife is so patina'd it doesn't turn onions or potatoes brown even after sitting in contact with them on the board for a long time. Good luck with the forging and with the paring knives but be careful, you might get completely addicted!
 
all my uncladded carbon steel blades are heavily patina'd.

so patina'd they're all almost uniformly grey. some splotches of darker shades of grey, but still grey.

when i thin a uncladded carbon blade, it's the only time i get bad reactions to ingredients i cut like onions, garlic among other things.
 
W2 is also supposedly a steel that will patina VERY quickly. Since you sometimes hear people talk about 'sulphur" smell or taste with carbon knives, it makes me wonder if some of the problems with food reactivity can be caused in part by the "incidental" alloying elements in addition to good old fashion "rusting"? If nothing else, W2 and W1 are going to typically be cleaner than regular old 1095.
BloodrootBlades said:
I have heard people say that about W2 as well, but chemically speaking it has no resistance to oxidation and therefor its reactivity should be identical to W1/1095 which all have similar carbon contents and alloys/lack thereof. Vanadium in the W2 should have no affect on oxidation to my knowledge (anybody have information on this?). Nickel does some and chromium does when it's not up in carbides, but W2 has neither. I wonder if some of the perceived differences in reactivity between different carbon steels are not confounded with the degree of polish on the blade. The finer the polish the less surface area for reaction to take place and differences in surface area can be HUGE between say a blade taken to 400 grit and a blade taken to 1200 grit and buffed. Without having identical surface areas/per inch of blade any comparison of reactivity between steels may be completely misleading.
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BloodrootBlades said:
Good luck with the forging and with the paring knives but be careful, you might get completely addicted!
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Now you tell me! I came to this site to find out how to make some woodworking hand plane blades I needed. Well, I made the first couple and still had well over three feet of 1084 left over and all these pictures of knives floating in my head from reading up here. I was up way too late reading through the books I got from the library on blacksmithing and blade making. I'd have been hammering away but I think I'd find myself locked out of the house :)

I was surprised it had such a strong taste as well. When it first happened I searched online but only found references to knives causing an odor, not taste as well. This definitely includes taste when it does happen. I actually thought the cutting board was tainting the apple slices.

It isn't an expensive knife at all as far as people here see things but it is better than others I've used. Well, I've used much much costlier knives but not much costlier knives that were kept sharp!
 
HankG said:
Now you tell me! I came to this site to find out how to make some woodworking hand plane blades I needed. Well, I made the first couple and still had well over three feet of 1084 left over and all these pictures of knives floating in my head from reading up here. I was up way too late reading through the books I got from the library on blacksmithing and blade making. I'd have been hammering away but I think I'd find myself locked out of the house :)

I was surprised it had such a strong taste as well. When it first happened I searched online but only found references to knives causing an odor, not taste as well. This definitely includes taste when it does happen. I actually thought the cutting board was tainting the apple slices.

It isn't an expensive knife at all as far as people here see things but it is better than others I've used. Well, I've used much much costlier knives but not much costlier knives that were kept sharp!
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that is what I found after making a couple of kitchen knives, they are inexpensive(even when counting my labor at $20/hr) and they work really well. the only knife I own that had issues with transferring taste and smell to the food is the most expensive, a sabtier 4 star/elephant chef's that can't make it thru a small onion before starting to rust.
 
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