1084 Quench Oil Question

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drysideshooter

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Dec 6, 2011
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I realize that canola oil can be used for quenching 1084, but if I want to get an oil that may last longer would the 11 second quench oil from McMaster Carr be suitable?

From everything I have read, it sounds like you want the 1084 in the quench oil within 4 or 5 seconds of coming out of the oven. I can see if using foil and fumbling at all, it would be fairly easy to exceed that, so I have been reading about the coatings, like PBC, that can be used at the heat treating temps for 1084. Do such coatings contaminate the quench oil at all and significantly reduce the life of the oil?

How long would something like 3 gallons of canola oil last? I've read that the heat breaks it down and it needs to be replaced more often than a commercial quenching oil, but have no idea how long of a life could be expected? Are we likely talking about 100 blades or more, or would it need to be replaced more frequently?

Any help or advice would be greatly appreciated. I looked at Kelly Cupple's website because I am only a bit over an hour away from Yakima, but it says AAA and Parks 50 are both no longer available, at least from him.

ON EDIT: It looks like I may be able to get Superquench 70 locally. From what I have read, isn't this supposed to be fast enough for 1084 as well?
 
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Superquench 70 looks like a decent oil. It wouldn't do as well on 1095, W1-2... but steels like 5160, 52100, O1, L6, etc... would love it. 1084 is on the cusp. A slightly faster oil would be best but I don't think a medium speed oil would ruin 1084. If you can get it locally, go for it.
 
Rick Marchand said:
Superquench 70 looks like a decent oil. It wouldn't do as well on 1095, W1-2... but steels like 5160, 52100, O1, L6, etc... would love it. 1084 is on the cusp. A slightly faster oil would be best but I don't think a medium speed oil would ruin 1084. If you can get it locally, go for it.
Click to expand...

Thanks Rick. Would canola actually be faster than suoerquench? I also see that McMaster Carr sells an additive for quenching oils that makes them faster. Would that we worthwhile?
 
I'm curious to this as well. Everyone says use parks or something similar but in my quest to find it I came across a Kevin Cashen post where he said parks stopped selling to the small guys or something along those lines. Now this was a few years ago he said this but it was a real downer because if he can't find it then my chances are probably not very good. I believe he mentioned it was Kelly who he was getting it from or pointed people to and that is how he knew they stopped selling it in small batches. I'll see if I can dig it up again.

Does anyone know of a confirmed source that sells it in smaller sizes? 5 gallons or less?
 
Maxim Oil, in Fort Worth, has sold Parks 50 in 5 gal pails. (817) 293-4645.
 
Rick is right about 1084 being on the cusp. I have M/C 11 sec. & P-50 and I'm here to tell ya that Aldo's 1084 gets a couple of points harder out of the quench with P-50 than it does with M/C 11 sec..
 
I called Maxim in Texas and talked with Carla. What a nice lady. Parks 50 is $92.01 for a 5 gallon pail and about $50 shipped to my door. That makes it a bit more than Canola, but should last much longer so its worth it to me. I also believe the Parks doesn't need to be heated for quenching.
 
Parks 50 should not be heated prior to use. It works best at temps
from 70f to 120 f.
 
Thanks Russ, that was my understanding. Another plus for Parks instead of canola.

Do anti scale coatings contaminate quench oil enough to be of any concern?
 
drysideshooter said:
Thanks Russ, that was my understanding. Another plus for Parks instead of canola.

Do anti scale coatings contaminate quench oil enough to be of any concern?
Click to expand...

I don't know........Had the same concern, so haven't used any of them...

From your first post, I understand you're using an oven/kiln..?
 
Yes Russ. I am ordering an Evenheat KF18 with rampmaster and one of the Grizzly hardness guages.

From what I have read, 1084 needs to get in to the quenching oil extremely quickly. My fear with using foil would be the time it would take to get the blade out of the foil, and into the quenching oil in a good orientation. That is why I thought about some like anti scale. From what I have seen though, 1084 straight out of a kiln doesn't look too bad. Am I probably better off spending a little more time cleaning it up post HT than potentially having a less effective HT?

I genuinely appreciate the help.
 
Don't use foil on an oil quenching steel. I know this from experience and confirmed by Stacy and the gang when I asked how you're supposed to remove the foil quick enough to quench. You can't :)

Save the foil for air quenching steels and if you are worried about scale use anti scale coating from brownells.

On the kiln I was going to do the same as you until I saw the price difference between 18" and 27". 18" may be perfect for you and if so disregard, but had I not double checked I would have missed out, it was only about $100 more for an extra 9"!
 
I'd suggest leaving the edge 3/32-1/8' thick pre HT, and skipping the foil. Your 1084 will decarb only very slightly
in the oven, and the absence of the foil (as you noted) will allow you to get the blade into the quench more quickly.

Place the blade(s) into a preheated oven, and monitor till the blade matches the color of the inside of the oven,
then start counting time. A 2-3 minute soak at temp is enough for 1084.

Once the noise/vibration of the quench has nearly stopped, withdraw the blade, and wipe it down quickly, then
check for straightness. At this point it should 400-500f and can be straightened with tongs & vise pretty easily.


A HT rack can be made from 1 1/2" angle iron , slotted to hold blades edge up, and aid in reducing
warpage.
 
I noticed the price difference wasn't much. Using the same wattage for elements my concern was wondering how much slower the kiln would ramp up. From your experience is the difference negligable?
 
Russ Andrews said:
I'd suggest leaving the edge 3/32-1/8' thick pre HT, and skipping the foil. Your 1084 will decarb only very slightly
in the oven, and the absence of the foil (as you noted) will allow you to get the blade into the quench more quickly.

Place the blade(s) into a preheated oven, and monitor till the blade matches the color of the inside of the oven,
then start counting time. A 2-3 minute soak at temp is enough for 1084.

Once the noise/vibration of the quench has nearly stopped, withdraw the blade, and wipe it down quickly, then
check for straightness. At this point it should 400-500f and can be straightened with tongs & vise pretty easily.


A HT rack can be made from 1 1/2" angle iron , slotted to hold blades edge up, and aid in reducing
warpage.
Click to expand...

Russ, is it not okay to put the knives in the cold kiln and then quickly ramp to full temp?

Do you prefer slotted angle iron to the non metallic racks that are available? My concern with angle iron would be it contacting an element since its a conductor.

From your experience is warpage typically wavy or more of a gentle bend in one or two areas? I have seen some vise inserts that were made to help straighten a bend.
 
I only have the 22" Evenheat, so can't comment on a comparison.

I'd not put a blade in a cold oven, and ramp. You don't know how long it will

take to reach your target, or (more importantly) how long it will be above

critical temp before it reaches target (austenitising) temp.....so can't know

how long your soak actually is......All about Time/Temp and Control.

Warpage is USUALLY minimal and only in one side/side direction, and can

be minimized by keeping the blade cool while grinding.

The racks I've made are short enough that there's no worry

about shorting to the coil. I usually heat one blade at a time

anyhow, so don't need a long rack.
 
I'm very happy with the 26" kiln and I am glad to know that down the road and I can do some long blades and that coveted Gladius I am working my way towards. In a perfect world where I was loaded with money and the swedish bikini team paid my bills and kept my house clean I would have one of the smaller kilns and one larger like 48". Alas that is not the world I live in so a compromise was made with the 26".

Alot of what i read said to put them in and turn it on due to safety concerns touching the coils. I know a lot of folks do what Russ mentioned so I take it as a personal preference. Once I get a hardness tester I plan on doing some experimenting with this to see what works best for me. I also try to HT as many knives in a go as possible and find it easier to load up the kiln and hit program one (get the rampmaster its great) and go do other work until it beeps at me. I can't speak to the time difference between mine and the 18 but I can't imagine there is a major difference, maybe a few minutes or so but this is just a guess.

I also use a metal blade holder because it was cheap and I made it but there is one drawback vs the ceramic plate and pins usa knifemaker sells. It will not screw up your fire bricks like the metal will. They are very fragile and I've already scuffed them up a bit removing knives so I plan to buy the ceramic plate.

If you think you're going to want to make big bowies or machetes at some point go big, I know how I am and knew that I would just be pissed later on if I didn't step up from the 18" :)

Good luck you will be happy with your purchase!

Russ I checked out your site and those are some beautiful knives my friend, you work is exceptional!
 
I use PBC coating on most of my knives while heat treating, and it doesn't affect the performance of my Parks 50 whatsoever. All the coating that blows off in the quench sinks to the bottom of the tank, and sits there, getting along nicely with all the satanite that's blown off in the quench when I use it for hamon.

All good. Couldn't do what I do without PBC. The amount of thermal cycling would quickly roach all the carbon out.
 
Thanks Matthew, that is good to know. Sounds like if you ever wanted to filter it out you could pour the oil through a filter?

Do you use the full 5 gallons in the quenching tank?
 
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